B-17 Flight Model

[Fallen]

For the love of god people, its just a game. Every one screaming like banshees over this FM error or that FM error. When Heinz Beir or (put some random US ace here) posts here that the FM is way off, then theres reason to whine like you all do, until then let it go. No one here has ANY idea how the planes your speaking of performed in world war 2, we have have specs and readouts and every other peice of innane litreture explaining what they did, but they dont take into account wear or bad oil or bad weather or defects or any adverse effects, just pretend that the 'overmodled p51' is a brand new plane and the 'undermodled b17' has the wrong kind of gas in it and has all sorts of bad replacement parts....Sorry for ranting, but it seems like no one is ever satisfied.

--Fallen@smashedupsanity.com

"You can please all the people some of the time, and you can please some of the people all the time, but you cant please all the people all the time."

[Goombah]

Fallen...
You say:"No one here has ANY idea how the planes your speaking of performed in world war 2,"
You, Fallen, are very much mistaken, and have leapt to an erroneous conclusion that suited your emotional purposes.

For your information, I flew in B17's during WWII, as well as several planes of that and earlier vintage...and I can describe how they flew.

You are also, (to put it kindly, and in conformance with the rules of this forum,) very much misinformed about the difference between flight simulations and arcade games.

(You are also misinformed about the correct contraction of the words "you are"...it is not "your" as you have it, it is "you're".) (You're welcome!)

From a background of over two years as a flight simulator instructor pilot, I can tell you that it is highly important for a flight simulation to have the proper FM. (flight characteristics properly modeled) For if it does not, it, fails the definition of "flight simulator", for it does not properly simulate the way the airplane flies.

I put it this simply because I want to make sure that you can understand the difference, dispite your obvious lack of expertise in this area, and your demonstrated perchant for emotionally leaping to erroneous conclusions while you try to belittle the statements of those who DO know what they are talking about.

Goombah

 



[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-20-1999).]

[Fallen]

Alright so YOU know what your talking about. I keep forgetting that people over the age of 30 play games (simulations) but you cant, repeat _cant_ get the feeling of flying an aircraft sitting at your desk, with a joystick and pedals and a 15-20 inch monitor. Of course the FM isnt going to feel right, the entire human element has been removed, what i meant by 'its just a game' is to let them do thier thing to the FM for a few months, work out the kinks, they know what theyre doing, if it goes pay to play and you feel your not getting your moneys worth becuase you think the FM is wrong then email them about it. Or even post about it. But its a beta first of all, and i still dont think you can accurately represent an aircraft (no matter if the numbers that are inputted are the correct ones or not) on a computer screen. I think people should stop blaming HTC for not having the FM just how they want it, and start looking at the fact that they cant 'feel' the FM. Who knows, maybe if you could just instantly create a plane out of computer code and fly it around in real life, it would turn out just right, despite the alledged shortcommings.

[Goombah]

Fallen..

Your posting this time was not so emotionally charged, and was "reasonably reasonable" as the expression goes, so I will try to clear up for both of us  the reasons for our failure, and the failures of others like us, to agree.

You say "but you cant, repeat _cant_ get the feeling of flying an aircraft sitting at your desk, with a joystick and pedals and a 15-20 inch monitor.

With a correctly instrumented flight simulator with a correct Flight model indeed I can! Just as you or I can become immersed in a book to the point that we forget we are reading and the story unfolds in our head...Just as we can lose ourselves in watching talented actors in a play or a movie.

A pilot who is accustomed to flying on instruments has learned to ignore his physical sensations and environment and concentrate only on what his eyes show him and his brain interprets when he reads the dials on the instrument panel.

If the FM is right and the dials react correctly to the input from his stick, rudder pedals, throttle, keyboard, and mouse(His controls),he can become so immersed in his "flying" that as he makes a let down, under instrument conditions to an unfamiliar field, he forgets everything except the procedures to be followed to find that runway.  It is  just as when you are reading you are not conscious of turning the pages.

But if the instruments do not react correctly to his input, for the airplane simulation he is flying, his immersion is destroyed just as yours would be if you turned the page and found an old fried egg hiding the print on the next page.  

Similarly if he is supposed to be in combat with another airplane and his B17 rolls like a Mustang or his Mustang wallows like a '17 when he attempts to roll it, it ruins his "GAME".

There are two major types of players of simulation "Games"... The arcade players and the serious or "hard core" "Simmers".  Neither is better than the other, they just have different motivations.

The arcade players are quite satisfied with the playlike airplanes that are only symbolic, so long as they can "shoot 'em up" and shoot 'em down easily. Like golf, their challenge is to better their score each time.

The hard core simmer wants the more sophisticated challenge of pitting aircraft with known performance parameters against each other, using his skill as a pilot to get the most out of the flying characteristics of his chosen plane, in a battle against another aircraft that has equal though different flight performance, therefore must be fought differently.

Obviously if the Flight models of the two planes are not correct, "all bets are off" and there is no point, or enjoyment in playing the "game"for him.

So you see what works fine for the arcade player is a complete waste of time for the hard core simmer.

I have drawn my comparisons with very broad strokes...actually there are varying degrees of each type of player. Software houses must find a viable compromise between the two opposite types, if they hope to reallise maximum profits.

Please do not be offended if I tell you that you do not belong on this forum. You see this forum is a sounding board to tell the software house what is wrong with their game, so that they, the software house, can evaluate what they hear and strike a happy medium between the simple arcade symbolic planes and the true flight simulation.

They can turnout arcade games easily without any feedback from players of the arcade type, indeed the malls are full of that sort of game and they give much entertainment to the arcade players who drop in coins for awhile, then move on to another machine..

It is a truism that the simplicity of the arcade game causes the novelty of each game to quickly wear off.

Aces High is intended to be a longer lasting type of online game, where people will regularly "pay their dues" because they are still challenged by the scenario,skill required, and yes, the REALISM.

That is why Fallen,I say that this forum is wrong for you... your postings here on this forum are of marginal help to HiTech, while the carping, done by the "complainers" (Which you so deplore)is constructive and helpful to them.

Cordially,

Goombah.  

[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-20-1999).]

[bloom25]

Goombah, I must say that was a very good post, and I agree with you in many ways.  When I fly a plane in a sim, which unlike you, was and will never be able to fly, it is important to me to have the FM as realistic as is possible on a computer.  IMO the FM quality, in many ways, is what makes or breaks a flight sim.  I also liked, and was quite impressed with the way you responded to Fallen, it was not meant to be insulting to him in any way.  

I too believe that the people at HTC can greatly benefit from posts, backed up by solid evidence, of a problem with a particular flight model.  After all, as many have pointed out (myself included), this is a beta, therefore the time to make changes to an incorrect flight model is now.  We also can't expect the game to be perfect already for the same reason. The best way to fix this is in the way that you have described above, by posting errors backed up by evidence or expert opinion.

I'm also very impressed with how far this game has come in the last few months.  HTC most certainly reads the posts that we make, and has made many changes to the game as a direct result of some of those posts.  I also believe that HTC does not see posts about a particular flight model being incorrect as offensive, that is the purpose of many of the forums on this message board, and these posts can only help to make the game better for all of us.  

<S> to all of those people who are trying to make this game the best that it can be.

[Goombah]

Thank you, bloom25, for your keen perception.  

I hope I have delivered a message providing better understanding of the source of disagreement, and of the importance of timely and constructive feedback, that will reach many others on this forum besides ourselves.

There are getting to be all too few remaining software houses who are able and willing to produce a High level flight simulation. We must therefore provide all the help and backing we can to HTC in their endeavors.

Goombah


[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-20-1999).]

[Minotaur]

Goombah;

I too can agree with much of what you have discussed.  It is however quite plain from your words that IMO you contradict the very thoughts that you have tried to get across.  

For myself, you come off sounding like some kind of hypocryte.  Maybe with just a handfull of "Superiority Challenged, Fogging of Clarity" thrown in.  BTW, hypocrasy is describing what shall not be done, by doing that very thing that is being described.

How the hell could, would, or should you know what another person could, would or should do.  Or for that matter, what form or method another person could, would or should be expressing their ideas.

You have indeed flown airplanes during WW2.  I certainly respect your knowledge, your experience and most of all your sacrifices for my freedom.  I make no challenges toward those arguements that you have made.  I find each of them quite thought out and valid.

I can however; challenge your conscending attitude.  Because, above all the facts, opionions and mishmash.  AH is just a game.  IMO, it is meant to be enjoyed in whatever form the person playing "The Game" chooses it to be enjoyed.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Mino

[Goombah]

The Minotaur makes an unwarranted attack for no discernable cause:"How the hell could, would, or should you know what another person could, would or should do. Or for that matter, what form or method another person could, would or should be expressing their ideas."

"Physician, heal thyself!"    

You have chosen a fitting name for yourself...If I remember Greek mythology correctly, the Minotaur was mostly "bull"....    

Goombah



[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-20-1999).]

[Minotaur]

Goombah;

LOL  

BTW what is a Goombah?  I imagined it to be  something that falls, from low altitude, out of a "Turkey's A**".

The "Minotaur" was mostly man, and the victim of a cruel deed performed by an angry "Mythological God".  But, this "God of Myths" I do not believe, considered himself to be a "Hardcore Simmer".  Whatever that is.  

<Salute>

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 12-20-1999).]

[Goombah]

Goombah is the affectionate term for the loyal members of proud respected families.



[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-20-1999).]

[StarKnite]

Well I know of two references to Goombah...

One I think is the name of those little mushroom headed bad guys in the mario games. hehehe

The 2nd is umm... well...
/me looks over his shoulder nervously.

Nevermind. hehehehe

[dakota]

ok, ok,
Time to end this one.
If you spent 1/10th the time on line as you do flaming each others tulips Hitech and Pyro M I G H T  get some Useful feed back.
FLY, stop crying!
And a couple of you, grow up!!!!!

[Goombah]

dakota

Are you addressing these remarks to me?

[Minotaur]

Dakota;

LOL    

Are you feeling left out of the flame war?  I can think of a really tidy little flame for you, if you would like me to.  

As for the rest.  I wear the shoes that fit me.  I dump the gravel, out of the shoes, that irritates me.  I put on my sandles and laugh, when it is laughable.

I only suspect Goombah is mature enough to do the same.  I am judging this from how well thought out, the comments Goombah made were.  Each comment was very valid.  I certainly respect each of those ideas, I just don't necessary agree with all of them.  This is the purpose of a forum, interchanging ideas.

Try it OK?      

Personally, I have a problem with the "Hardcore Simmer Type A" mindset.  Which IMO, often amounts to "Play the game that I want" or "Go play somewhere else".  

My feet get get kind of uncomfortable, when my shoes are filled with that kind of muck.

However; I do apologize to you and to anyone else I might have offended. My idea of humor might run a tad on the dry side.  

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 12-21-1999).]

[Fallen]

Took me a bit of time to reply but here I go.  

I understand what you mean by the difference in 'hardcore simmers' and 'arcade players' I personally dont fall into either of these catagories, im very interested in the world war two time period, and im interested in the people who also love the planes and tanks and nostailgia(sp?) from that time period. I really enjoy flying with you guys, and i really have alot of fun, its not easy to shoot people down, but thats not what im here for. Im also not here for the ultra realistic flight model or the super modeled guns or the physics or the eye candy. Im here mainly becuase i love flight sims and i love the people asscocaited with them. Ill admit i dont know alot of numbers about the planes, but i know that a p51 out flew about every other plane in the war. And that a zero could out turn a p38, and a 109 with its ext.guns tore the living jesus out of whatever it hit. So thats why i get kinda upset when people are complaining about the p51 'uberplane' and how easy it is to fly.

I wasnt there or anything, but every thing ive ever read said it was designed to be flown by 'new' pilots, and it was pretty darn responsive. So it kinda makes me angry when i feel that some people want 'balance' as opposed to realism. Thats what i read this post as at first glance. After you replied i felt differently and tried to explain myself as opposed to continuing to sound like an idiot. My apologies   I have a naturally short temper and fly off the handle way to much, my co-workers hate me for it. Hopefully you all wont.

Im very serious about this sim, but i just personally believe (arent that what bbs' are for? to post opinions and thoughts? not just tell HTC whats 'wrong' with thier game, which i think is darn near perfect btw) that HTC should focus on getting the community more 'into' the era, and setting up more believable terrian and functions than to piddle with exact flight characteristics. As long as you got a p51 looking like a p51, and all the gauges read correctly, and it flys according to the specs (may not be perfectly by the numbers, phsyics engines will do that to you.) and it has some detailed b17s to escort or some french farm houses to fly over. Then its pretty darn believable to me. Probally to most other people as well.

I may be wrong and i can accept that   i just think we'd be better off with an officers club in-game and flight techs running around, and more missions and more of a sense of friendship that brings you personally into the game, kinda like an RPG, than with perfect flight stats. I think people would forget about the 1 digit here or there that isnt correct if they had more a feeling of being there. Just my 2 cents.

--Fallen

PS. Much love to goombah, totally schooled me.   i felt my iq go up just reading his post.


[This message has been edited by Fallen (edited 12-21-1999).]