Author Topic: Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich  (Read 550 times)

Offline Degas

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
<S> to the pilots of the 362nd and 377th FGs.

I knew it was inevitable that someone would come on the board and explain how the first-hand accounts of pilots who actually flew the missions were "wrong" for this reason or that.

Here's the facts:  Up until late 1944, newly manufactured German armored vehicles were indeed armored on their ventral surfaces.  However, at the end of 1944/beginning of 1945, the German Reich was unable to produce sufficient high-tensile strength steel, and so the armored vehicles being produced at that time were left ventrally unarmored.

There is no need for anti-mine armor unless you are using your panzers in offensive operations.  Such was the reasoning of Albert Speer at the time.  This, combined with the absolute decimation of the Ruhr industrial region, dictated reduced useage of armor plating on the undersides of virtually all Wermacht armor manufactured in the 6 to 9 months prior to V-E day.

Some of these "ricochet" attacks were ineffective, simply because the Jugs were attacking armor made prior to the design changes.  

The efficacy of the "ricochet" method of attack was proven by inspection of destroyed Tiger/Panther/Leopard tanks performed by U.S. Army Combat Engineers, advancing closely behind Allied front line forces.

Along with all of those Allied men and women whose sacrifices enabled freedom's ultimate victory in the Second World War, I salute all of the members of the 362nd and 377th Fighter Groups.

Kudos to the History Channel for their programming, as well.

Offline ra

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3569
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2001, 11:43:00 AM »
This was a cool show, color gun camera footage!  Now I expect we'll see a lot of new Jug pilots in the MA... for about 1 day.


ra

Offline minus

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2001, 12:04:00 PM »
ehhh actualy is it imposible reviev in Europe hmmm bad bad if can some make a low quality copy , copy what not tuch Copyright
(i em not a pirat )
got a satelite recive unlimited bandwich just need to get it from ftp

maybe ?

Offline Hooligan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2001, 12:21:00 PM »
Degas:

Thanks for the new and interesting information.

Hooligan

Offline Nifty

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4400
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2001, 01:32:00 PM »
I don't know what was more disturbing, hearing the guy talk about the horses jumping 20 ft in the air after getting hit by a .50 cal slug, or seeing the guncam footage of the horse carriages getting strafed.  I'm just glad they didn't show footage of soldiers getting strafed when the pilot was discussing it.  *shudders*  At least the pilot said something about not feeling good about shooting at the horse drawn carriages.

It was a good show all around.  It's necessary to be reminded of the reality of WWII.  Even without counting the Holocaust, more civilians died in WWII than military personnel (at least in the European theater).

Real wars are about the worst thing humanity can do, but it sure is fun to play wargames on the PC.
proud member of the 332nd Flying Mongrels, noses in the wind since 1997.

Offline fats

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »
Someone mpeg/divx it?


// fats

Offline SpitLead

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 202
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2001, 02:03:00 PM »
Degas,

You made some VERY good points.  I think you cleared up the issue with some solid and logical info.  I'm sure it was a tactic that was only marginally successful but successful nonetheless.  I'm sure all it would take is 1-2 accounts to start circulating within the squadrons and they'd all give it a try if they ever ran across a tank.  And why not, you're mission is interdiction and that means tanks too and if you'd heard that there was no armor underneath then that's the tactic you'd try.  Makes perfect sense to me...

Offline DmdBT

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 331
      • http://www.damned.org
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2001, 06:33:00 PM »
I thought that there should have been more of the air to air and air to ground footage shown instead of countless minutes showing captured Germans parading around which was a waste of valuable air-time imho. All in all a very eye-opening show.

In spite of popular belief, was good to see the smoke whisps from the tracer rounds and the nice "sparkles" of impacting rounds just like we have here in AH... we are sooo spoiled.  

Lonz
P47-d-30 dweeb

Offline rogwar

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1913
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2001, 07:21:00 PM »
And if you watch carefully you can see the grey flak bursts on occassion. Imagine the small arms ground fire as well and the always ever present "golden BB".

Rogue out

Offline rogwar

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1913
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2001, 07:26:00 PM »
And if you watch carefully you can see the grey flak bursts on occassion. Imagine the small arms ground fire as well and the always ever present "golden BB".

As far as shooting armor and the 0.50s effectiveness. A 50 cal round is big...

Imagine being inside a tank getting hammered by those 8 0.50s. Regardless of whether it is taking damage or not, I cannot see the tank crew laughing and flipping the bird at  the attacking P47.

Rogue out

Offline Jigster

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 107
      • http://www.33rd.org
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2001, 08:14:00 PM »
There were some instances during the guncam footage of tracer rounds hitting paved roads and shooting nearly straight up. But only one or two out of every 3 or so second burst.

Btw there is one slight problems with the Tiger and whether or not the engine compartment was armored ... most were completed by 44, as were most of the main battle tanks. (Panther is an exception, it started production in '43 and continued to the end of the war)

A total of 1,354 Tigers were built between Aug 1942 and Aug 1944 when production ceased.

The German industry, in the case of it's heavy tanks, did not keep producing tanks up until the end of the war. During late 1942, most of '43 and early '44, nearly all the tanks that would serve during the remainer of the European conflict were produced, before the industrial sectors had to scamp on raw materials. The only real problems with the heavier German tanks were replacement parts such as engines, bearings and other parts made to wear out, as these had to be constantly replaces.

Even the rehashed chassis from earlier conflicts still had their armor intact, which had been produced during what could still be called the offensive (but in actuallity a stale mate) period in Russia.

Only the Pz IV and the Pz V Panthers were really subject to manufacturing problems during mid '44 to the end of the war, as they were in continued production.

Offline Jigster

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 107
      • http://www.33rd.org
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2001, 08:22:00 PM »
Oh and as far as the Pz V and Pz IV go, 2800 Panthers were produced before March '44 (D and A) Another 3126 Ausf G versions from March '44 till the end of the war.

The majority of Pz IV chassis were produced before '44.

Offline Hobodog

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 423
      • http://www.military.com
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2001, 08:53:00 PM »
ONe of us here in the states could by several and send them overseas and those of you over their could pay him/her 19.95 plus shipping and maybe a hassle fee. And then you would have it. :0

Offline buhdman

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 140
      • http://home.earthlink.net/~wjbarrow
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2001, 09:42:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nifty:
I don't know what was more disturbing, hearing the guy talk about the horses jumping 20 ft in the air after getting hit by a .50 cal slug, or seeing the guncam footage of the horse carriages getting strafed.  I'm just glad they didn't show footage of soldiers getting strafed when the pilot was discussing it.  *shudders*  At least the pilot said something about not feeling good about shooting at the horse drawn carriages.

It was a good show all around.  It's necessary to be reminded of the reality of WWII.  Even without counting the Holocaust, more civilians died in WWII than military personnel (at least in the European theater).

Real wars are about the worst thing humanity can do, but it sure is fun to play wargames on the PC.

I couldn't agree with you more, Nifty.  When I saw that footage and realized what was really happening on the ground when those fifty-cals opened up, it made me feel for those at both ends of the barrels.

Buhdman, out

Offline Dune

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1727
      • http://www.352ndfightergroup.com/
Thunderbolts: The Conquest of the Reich
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2001, 12:00:00 AM »
Good info Degas.

However, the mention of the 377th meant the 377th Fighter Squadron of the 362nd Fighter Group.

------------------
Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona