Author Topic: Shameless advertizing for CAP event.  (Read 1156 times)

Offline Sikboy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6702
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« on: July 19, 2003, 01:00:49 PM »
I like to think that the CT cult... er I mean fanbase would be interested in the CAP event we hold on Saturdays.

Today (the19th) we are in the Pacific, fighting over the Mariana Islands (well, using the slot map... work with me here :) ) With USMC F4U1s fighting against Ki-61s. Also available will be F6Fs, FM2s, A6M5s, Bf110s (Ki-45 sub) A-20s, B-26s, Ju-88s (betty Sub) Vals, Kates, TBMs and SBDs.

Last week with a similar planeset (minus the allied bombers) the fight was as even as it gets. The Ki-61s and the F4Us battled to a stalemate (with a 1/1 kd) While the FM2 and A6M5 went a collective 0-8 lol. There is fierce ground action, Fleet vs. Fleet fighting, and pretty much everything you could want from a Pacific Scenario, except for a Green P-38.

for more information you can check out:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91387

Or just join us at 5:30 Eastern US time. If you can't make it for the starting window, feel free to stop by later, as we have take off windows every 30 minutes :)

Ok, back to your ritual sacrifices :p

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2003, 02:55:17 PM »
I cant speak for the others but thats a prety lame plane set thier, heavely pro Allied. But then again, I may be mistakedn hear of course, but CAP is not about balanced plane set's right?, Howeaver if they were (more balanced) it might be better for attandance.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2003, 03:02:53 PM by brady »

Offline Slash27

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12795
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2003, 04:10:30 PM »
Yes, take out all Allied fighters and add the 262 as a sub for the Nakajima "Kika"

Offline Sikboy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6702
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2003, 09:11:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by brady
I cant speak for the others but thats a prety lame plane set thier, heavely pro Allied. But then again, I may be mistakedn hear of course, but CAP is not about balanced plane set's right?, Howeaver if they were (more balanced) it might be better for attandance.


I was a bit skeptical myself, but as I mentioned last week everything ended up in a dead heat with a similar planeset, with the IJN routing the Allies in fullfilling the objectives.

I haven't crunched the numbers from tonights CAP, However, from the point of view of objective fullfillment, it was very close.


-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Sikboy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6702
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2003, 09:40:21 PM »
I do respect your opinion with regard to plane balancing issues brady. With that in mind, could you let me know what you find most distressing or unbalanced with regard to the above posted planeset?

I would point out that there are some limitations both in Plane availability and of course limitations imposed by required objectives, which do change the planeset dynamic form what you would find in the CT (which may be what you were alluding to when you said "CAP is not about balanced planesets") But I do strive to keep things as competitive as possible in these events.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2003, 11:13:16 PM »
Well before I start I will say that I do not know the paticulares of the set up or any of the restrictions placed on the plane usage all of which would or could drasticaly effect balance question's, but like i mentioned I dont know that Balance in a plane set is realy an issue for the CAP event's. I also know that in the CT we try very hard for a balanced plane set were not always suxcesful ( plane set issues) but it is our primary goal, we find numbers drop when the plane set is lopsided, it is important for both sides to feal they have a decent chance.

  A side issue on K/D ratio's, they dont always point to the true nature of a plane match up, since they dont always tell you whats realy going on, lots of things can drasticaly effect K/D ratio's vulching, skill,sucide,ect, non of which have anything to do with "Balance".

 JU 88, why is this plane in the set up in the first place?, it is in no way at all like any Japanese bomber that was fielded in the war, you have F4U-1's and Hellcats which can easly catch and kill a Peggy so why saddle the Japanese with a slower and wowefully  underdefended Bomber, the Bettey was way better defended than the JU 88, the models you would likely be facing in this time frame would of had 4 20mm canons for defense, The bomber choice alone is one that clearly favors the Allies.

 The F4U-1a is the fastest of all the non perk F4U's, it hugely outpreforms the Japanese fighters (A6M5 and the Tony), it can be invencable, untouchable if it whishes to be, it also has a tremendous firepower advantage, both in sustained and in effective range, the 50's are tremendiously effective aganst the Lighter Japanese planes as well, while the Hog is fairly reselent.

 Hellcat: The Hellcat while not posesing the huge preformance gulf that existes between the F4U-1 and Tony, is still a far more capable platform than the Tony in a number of ways, if flow corectly it can disengage at will and use it's spead advantage to simply extend and run for an advantage, aganst the Zero (A6M5) the spead advantage is substantial. Aganst Both planes the Helcat enjoys the same gun advantages as the F4U-1, in adation to these advantages the Hellcat brings it's uber by comparasion ordance load out, of aprox 2,600 pounds,as aposed to the 1,000 pounds of the Tony.


 Wildcat: The FM2, is actualy faster than the Zero down low, can manuaver remarkably well, almost as good as a Zero, close enought to make for a decent fight, and it is better than the Tony at turn fighting, and again it is remarkably reselent to gunfire, and has the same 50 cal advantages as the other two.

 BF 110: This plane is in no way a Ki 45, the Ki 45 had better guns and the same bombload, but why not just give them a Tony instead, it has the same bombload and it would at least be somwhat competave, the 110C-4 is not compared to the allied planes.

 A20G's and B-26: This agian is a big allied advantage, hear we have two fast heavely armend and in the case of the B26 very well defended Bomber's, you have a very lightly defended JU 88 with heavy firpower planes that have better guns that can out range the Ju 88's defensive guns on one side, and the short ranged guns of the Japanese fighting the longer ranged and more effective guns of the allied bombers, totaly lopsided in favor of the alies. The Axis might have a beter bomb weight but their likely never going to make the target.


 Vals, Kates, TBMs and SBDs, hear we have another Allied advantage, TBM and the SBD are way more efective planes by a huge margine compared to the Japanese Kates and Vals.


  The only advantage the Japanese have is that generaly their planes handel better, but this advantage is lesend considerably by the Presence of the Wildcat.

 In all other areas the Allies have the better planes.


 Now like I said their are many set up criteria that can effect the Balance issues that I am not aware of, and Balance as we view it in the CT is not nescessarly what you may looking to creat in the CAP, I do know it can and does effect player interest in CAP though, at least mine and my old squadmates, who gave up on cap over these types of issues, that was a long time ago, and things change, but looking at that plane set at face value it seams as thought it hasent, at least in this case.

Offline Squire

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7683
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2003, 12:07:00 AM »
Well for starters, the CT has had sets with similar setups in the past, and Guad Scen used the Ju88 as well.

As for the F4U-1 vs Ki-61. Despite the evidence in every event and CT setup where these two have been included that shows the Ki-61 is capable of effectively fighting the F4U-1 and F6F you refuse to acknowledge it, and continue your error filled posts on the subject.

Let me sum this up for you. You are saying that because the 50s are a good weapon and the F4U-1 is faster at alt, that the setup is not fair? Thats just plain nuts, and does not address relative handling attributes, and climb rates.

The Hellcat, as you say is a good fighter if flown effectively? Ughh, thats proof that the setup isnt fair? Hello?

***What DID the IJN do in 1943 when they encountered the F4U-1 and F6F? run home? auger? call a time out? roll a 312mph Ki-43 with 2 x 12.7s!!! what? You have books on the IJN aces, you tell me.***

One last note, it was the SLOWER A6M3 that fought the F4U-1 and F6F-3 (and P-38F) in the Solomons...I cant wait untill its included, then what? another excuse as to how we cant do that either im sure. You ask for the A6M3 in AH what setup do you envision it in? BoB?

As for the bombers, I wont argue those points. Perhaps the Ki-67 would be appropriate where the allies have the B-26. I have posted in the past on the possibility of using the Ki-67 in setups.

Regards.
Warloc
Friday Squad Ops CM Team
1841 Squadron Fleet Air Arm
Aces High since Tour 24

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2003, 01:21:11 AM »
"Well for starters, the CT has had sets with similar setups in the past, and Guad Scen used the Ju88 as well. "

  That doesent mean they were balanced set up's either, were not perfect we screw the pooch at time's to, the JU 88 in the Guadacanal set up was an abomanation and one that was allowed despite a huge effort on my part to get it out, the CM's  felt that it's spead advantage would be abused and that fact alone was why they stuck with the JU 88, such an advantage does not exist in the above set up.


"As for the F4U-1 vs Ki-61. Despite the evidence in every event and CT setup where these two have been included that shows the Ki-61 is capable of effectively fighting the F4U-1 and F6F you refuse to acknowledge it, and continue your error filled posts on the subject."

  I acknowledge that people who fly those planes do things that give away their advantage and alow the Ki 61 to get in and out manuaver them, non of that in any way changes the Inhearent advantages those planes have advantages so lagre on the preformance side and firepower and ordance (more or less depending on which plane you looking at) side that it renders the Tony and the Japanese at a serious disadvantage.

"Let me sum this up for you. You are saying that because the 50s are a good weapon and the F4U-1 is faster at alt, that the setup is not fair? Thats just plain nuts, and does not address relative handling attributes, and climb rates. "

  The F4U is faster everywhear, and I did say that the Japanese had the advantage in turing (except in the case of the Wildcat), their is also more than  the the Fighter vs Fighter isue that makes the set up not fair.If you go hear you can see just how wide the spead margine is for the F4U, it also clearly shows that the Hellcat climbs better than the compation, the Alies generaly also have a big advantage low whear most of the combat takes place below 7K, down hear even the Wildcat does well aganst the compation:

http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm


"The Hellcat, as you say is a good fighter if flown effectively? Ughh, thats proof that the setup isnt fair? Hello? "

  I think I said it can disengage at will and run ( it climbs better to and is faster espichaly low whear most combat takes place), the main point is that each of the Allied planes has a number of advantages that when added up all tip the scale heavely in their favor, the Tony and the Hellcat are closest preformance wise so hear the comparasion of the two planes and the argument for the Hellcate being better is weakest, althought it still posese the above mentioned advantages.


"One last note, it was the SLOWER A6M3 that fought the F4U-1 and F6F-3 (and P-38F) in the Solomons...I cant wait untill its included, then what? another excuse as to how we cant do that either im sure. You ask for the A6M3 in AH what setup do you envision it in? BoB? "

  It was not all that much faster than the A6M2 and it did handel better at high spead and it had the Type 99MK II cannon which would make for way better fights than the A6M2 can put up, but in a way it is not going to be all that much better plane set wise, their will still be balance issues,a big help would be to get the beter preforming Earler Tony Model.
  When you get beyond the P400,Wildcat,P40,P39 vs, the A6M3 set up's and start adding the F4U's and the P38's( without the Earler Tony) you get some not to fun fight's, set up issues, whear the allies have a big advantage, after all we did win the war and a lot of US aces were made shoting down very slow and porely defended Japanese planes with week gun's, no wounder they had a lot of aces they had awsome planes, while this makes for good history and posably a good event, it does not make for good game play, But Like I mentioned above CAP is different, it is an event that people sign up for and agree to fly with the plane set's they are presented with.
  But if you see lower Number's and a lack of people jumping to comand a set up wher one side is on the short end of the stick, it is more or less a case of whell they just dont want to play the games you think are fun, since from their side of table it looks like you have all the cool toy's.

  Some wise man once told me this: Never sacrafice gameplay for Historical accuracery.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2003, 01:38:13 AM by brady »

Offline Sikboy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6702
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2003, 08:41:19 AM »
Thanks for the feedback Brady.

I have to say, when we first added the F4U1, I was pretty sure we were going to have trouble with it in the setup. But as I mentioned, the Ki-61 fought it to a standstill in Ki-61 vs. F4U1 fights. By the end of it all, the Ki-61 had one more kill on the F4U, than the F4U had on the Ki-61. Now, we're talking about a very small sample size here, and obviously as you have mentioned there are other factors involved in events. But we had some pretty good sticks in there, and dedicated hog pilots as well. While the hog has the speed advantage, as you mentioned the Ki can outturn it, and can also exploit the hogs poor climbing (and presumably poor acceleration, but I'm not really sure). This evidence surprised me to say the least, and I resolved to stay on top of it as we keep going.

With regard to the Ki-45/bf110 they have the same bomb load, and as far as I can tell, the 110 has more guns of the same calibre as the Ki-45 (with the exception of the anti-shipping version with the 75mm). It is included here as a balancing piece. We have dissalowed ord from fighters. Which means that for attack planes, it would be the val and kate vs. the sbd and the tbm. This, as you mentioned really doesn't add up well. So we have included the bf110 to give the IJN a jabo capability.

The Ju-88 has a very loyal following in the CAP event. Axis buff pilots know what they are getting into with that one. Also, it is called upon for anti-shipping operations often, which it excells at. The Peggy will be available soon (this event keeps a rolling timeline), but I imagine that when a lot of tonnage needs to be sunk, the Axis turn to the Ju-88 again (there's nothing like watching 6 fish head towards a fleet of dds lol). However, for the record, the Ju-88s did get butchered by the F6Fs this week. You are right, it will be nice to have the Peggy soon.

I think the hellcat is the best plane in this set, even if you take away its jabo capability. But again, in game, the Ki-61 fought it to a standstill. In Ki-61 vs. F6F5 action, the Hellcat killed 11 Tonys, while the Tonys killed only 10 Hellcats. The big missmatch occured when the A6M5 ran into the Hellcats. They were slaughtered.

Setup limitations did effect a lot of these problems as well (as you acknowledge). Such as the F4Us, B-26s, and A-20s only being available from "hot" bases, which were potential invasion targets (and therefor subjected to bombardment form Naval gunfire). In a 2.5 hour event, only 2 (F4U, A20, and B-26) of each were ever launched.

I think we dissagree with the Ki-61 vs. the F6F and the F4U in a limited life environment, but I do agree that this would be a very crappy CT setup. However, I think many of your points were addressed by the setup. Again, thank you for the feedback, it is very useful to me in trying to see how we can make sure these events remain balanced. I've made some real turkey planesets in my time, and its one thing I really want to avoid in the future.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2003, 11:54:37 AM »
The Big differance in the 110C4 and the Ki 45 is realy the Gun's, and Handeleing, their top spead is about the same, but preformance differs with alt and I dont have a chart to compare the two. The Ki 45 has the excelent Ho-5 which while a shorter ranged weapon than the 50cal, is a far better gun, than the MG FF, and of course the Ki 45 has the 37mm Ho-203 in the nose as well, and the same bomb load, we had this debate in the CT Staff forum a long time agon and we reasioned that the Tony provided more imershion caried the same bombload and would be used, but like you say with out the fighters caring bombs it seams a reasionable sub given the event paramater's.

  I can see why the Bomber guys would want the heaver bombloads, and the extra torpedos, but it is not at all imersive, Japanese bombers prety much all caried the same bombload as the Peggy around 1,800 pounds, and one torp, unless you look at the Emily and the Mavis you dont see more torps and bombs being caried in substantialy larger numbers by anything Japanese.

 In a limited life and structered event a lot of these "balance" isues are nulified or minimsed do to set up rules.

 The Hog is a bit slower in the Climb department than the Tony but just barely slower, It does excelerate faster though(see chart below, even the FM-2 can catch it) hear their prety close. But this is a game and people want to mix it up, which when in many US rides vs Japenes rides is a big mistake, when I fight aganst the Allies in a pac set I thank god that many guys play this way other wiese I would not be geting kill's, then I see some Hog god land a 10 kill sortie and realise that a few out their do use them the right way:)

 If we ever get the better preforming (curently we have the worst preforming Tony) Tony it will go a long way to improving the balance issue for me in these types of set up's.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2003, 12:10:33 PM by brady »

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2003, 12:07:32 PM »
Check this Chart out Sikboy, Fork made it for us on the CT Staff, it comes in handy:

 Accleration Rates: Test Results
Test Environment
Altitude: 150 ft
Winds: 0
Fuel Burn Rate: 0.01
Fuel: 25%
Vo: 150Mph
Vf: 250Mph
WEP: On

Description
All aircraft were loaded with 25% fuel and with minimal MG loads if available. Aircraft were auto-levelled at 150 feet and speed reduced to 125mph, except the Me 262* and Me 163*. 100% throttle was applied and WEP engaged (if available). At 150mph the timer was engaged to 250Mph. This was repeated five times for every aircraft. The average time was recorded to accelerate through 100 mph.

* Vo was 200, Vf was 300 due to stall conditions.

Forumla
Acceleration
a = (Vf - Vo) / t m/s^2
where
Vf - final velocity
Vo - initial velocity
t - time in seconds

Vf = 250mph = 111.8 m/s
Vo= 150mph = 67.1 m/s

a = (111.8m/s - 67.1m/s) / t
a = 44.7m/s / time

Results (in order of acceration)
Aircraft | Seconds | Acceleration
Me 163 | 7.7 | 5.8
Tempest V | 16.7 | 2.7
La-7 | 16.9 | 2.6
Spit XIV | 16.9 | 2.6
Bf 109G-10 | 17.1 | 2.6
La-5FN | 17.6 | 2.5
Me 262 | 19.5 | 2.3
Fw 190D-9 | 20.2 | 2.2
Bf 109G-2 | 20.5 | 2.2
F4U-4 | 20.8 | 2.1
Typhoon | 21.5 | 2.1
Bf 109G-6 | 21.8 | 2.1
P-38L | 22.0 | 2.0
Bf 109F-4 | 22.1 | 2.0
C205 | 22.2 | 2.0
Fw 190A-8 | 22.8 | 2.0
Fw 190A-5 | 23.0 | 1.9
P-51D | 23.3 | 1.9
NIK2-J | 23.4 | 1.9
Spit IX | 23.6 | 1.9
F4U-1D | 23.8 | 1.9
F4U-1C | 24.0 | 1.9
Ta-152H | 24.0 | 1.9
Yak-9U | 24.0 | 1.9
P-47D-30 | 24.5 | 1.8
F6F-5 | 24.6 | 1.8
Bf 110G-2 | 24.9 | 1.8
C202 | 24.9 | 1.8
Fw 190F-8 | 25.1 | 1.8
Spit V | 26.0 | 1.7
Mosq VI | 26.1 | 1.7
Yak-9T | 26.2 | 1.7
F4U-1 | 26.5 | 1.7
P-47D-11 | 26.9 | 1.7
Seafire IIC | 27.0 | 1.7
P-47D-25 | 27.1 | 1.6
A6M5b | 27.9 | 1.6
P-51B | 28.0 | 1.6
Hurr IIC | 29.1 | 1.5
FM2 | 29.9 | 1.5
Bf 110C-4b | 30.0 | 1.5
Ki-61-I-KAIc | 30.4 | 1.5
Bf 109E-4 | 33.2 | 1.3
Spit IA | 33.5 | 1.3
Hurr IID | 34.9 | 1.3
P-40E | 36.0 | 1.2
Hurr Mk 1 | 37.0 | 1.2
A6M2 | 40.3 | 1.1
F4F-4 | 40.9 | 1.1

Results are available in an Excel spreadsheet. If you like, email me at mr.fork@shaw.ca and I'll send you the results.
P-40B | 101.8 | 0.4

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2003, 12:17:07 PM »
Then their's this Chart :


 Originally posted by whels
MIL:
TEMPEST 372
LA-7 358
F4U-4 358
TYPHOON 355
YAK9-U 355
P-51D 354
F4U-1 350
P-51B 347
190D-9 346
F4U-1D 343
F4U-1C 342
109G-10 337
LA-5 336
P-38L 333
P-47D-11 333
SPIT-14 332
TA-152 332
P-47D-25 329
P-47D-30 329
190A-8 327
YAK9-T 327
190F-8 326
190A-5 326
MOSQ 325
C205 321
109G-2 320
F6F-5 320
109G-6 317
N1K2 313
109F-4 310
SPIT IX 310
C202 307
KI-61 305
110-G2 305
SEAFIRE 293
SPIT V 293
110-4b 290
FM2 290
A6M5 288
F4F 278
P40B 275
A6M2 275
P40E 276
HURR IIC 262
HURR IID 253
HURR I 253

WEP:
TEMPEST 386
LA-7 380
F4U-4 378
190D-9 375
TYPHOON 370
P-51D 367
109G-10 366
TA-152 361
SPIT-14 358
F4U-1 358
P-51B 358
F4U-1D 357
F4U-1C 356
LA-5 356
YAK9-U 355
190A-8 349
190F-8 349
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
109G-2 340
190A-5 339
MOSQ 338
YAK9-T 336
109G-6 336
109F-4 332
C205 331
F6F-5 330
N1K2 324
SPIT IX 319
110-G2 316
C202 315
KI-61 313
SEAFIRE 302
SPIT V 302
110-4B 300
FM2 297
P40E 297
109E-4 292
SPIT I 291
A6M5 288
F4F 275 no wep
A6M2 275 NO WEP
P40B 275
HURR IIC 273
HURR IID 265
HURR I 261

Offline Squire

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7683
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2003, 03:46:01 PM »
Would love to see the P-39/P-400 and the A6M3 added, they are both needed.

As for speedcharts, Im afraid they dont tell the whole story. If they did the CT would be a very different looking place.

"Early Ki-61", this really would do little to improve it vs the F4U-1 and F6F, and of course, your "cooking" that a bit by saying "lets have the early Ki-61 but make sure its the Ki-61a with the 20mm and not the Ki-61b without". In any case, like I said its combat record, I submitt, in the CT would be no better or worse than the Ki-61-KAI we have, which has 20mm cannon in the nose, and bomb carrying ability as well, which I suspect is the reason its modelled in AH.

On a closing note it is part of the CT that it is unbalanced. I submitt there has never been a "balanced" setup once, its not possible, they are different a/c. What you can do is try to get close (of course), but I see the Ki-61 and F4U-1 as a good match, within reason. The F4U-1D is a different story, it has a better climb rate. For all the setups I have seen done, it strikes me as no worse than many other matchups that have been played out.

How about a Channel Front 1942 next time with SpitfireV and HurricaneII vs 109F-4 and 190A-5? that way I can moan about being in the slow fighter.

I say, a tad more History, a bit less balance?  , and less whining all around would do us all a world of good...
Warloc
Friday Squad Ops CM Team
1841 Squadron Fleet Air Arm
Aces High since Tour 24

Offline Batz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3470
      • http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2003, 03:52:13 PM »
cap sux no matter what the plane set.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Shameless advertizing for CAP event.
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2003, 03:58:37 PM »
I recommend the Chateau Le Raisins Aigres `03. ;)