Author Topic: Heil Intolerance  (Read 11776 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #210 on: August 02, 2003, 06:56:24 PM »
'Gay parents are better than no parents' .. Sandman

If I were to decide an adoption and the kid was locked in the basement or drowned in the bathtub, I don't believe I could easily brush that off.  

Parents who qualify the natural way do not have to pass rigorously high standards. If I were a judge making decisions on who is qualified to adopt, I doubt half the parents I see in shopping malls would qualify....

I would think that sexual orientation of the parents should be able to enter the mix for the decision.  Just one of the many facets decided on a case by case.  

But to write a law prohibiting the judge from contemplating with that data in mind, (and that is what I believe fully sanctioned marriage would mandate) I think that may be stepping just a bit too far.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2003, 06:59:09 PM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #211 on: August 02, 2003, 07:00:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mietla
True, and I can see a number of scenarios here
    * a gay person stil "n a closet" publicly living  a hetero life
    * a biological parent who has decided to come out of the closet, but still retains a parental rights
    * an openly gay person gaining a custody of a child after the fact

[/B]



I don't see the point of making any distinction... sexual preference should be irrelevant, IMHO.
sand

Offline mietla

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« Reply #212 on: August 02, 2003, 07:21:55 PM »
They are different cases.

In case #1 it is pretty much certain that the gay behavior will be carefully hidden from children. Even if  a husband or a wife has a lover on a side and a spouse knows about it, it is very unlikely that this second life will be exposed to children. The kid can learn at the age of 20 or 30 that his parent was/is gay, but buy this time the reaciotn will be: "No ****, I had no idea".

In a case #2, the child may or may not know, but again, it is unlikely that it will be exposed to the "nitty-gritty" of the gay parent relationship. And again, later in life the reaction can be, "Yeah, I had a feeling all along"

In a case #3, the kid is in a thick of it. Not only does he/she know, but she/he takes it a perfectly normal and expected. As a matter of fact I would not be surprised if the kid was questioning a hetero relationships of his friends' parents. He just does not know any any other way.

You can argue that this is bad or good. You can even argue, that is does not even matter. I have my opinion (pretty strong at that), but no more, just an opinion.


I just made three distinct case to illustrate the difference, but obviously real life offers a spectrum, probably even extending what I've considered extremes.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #213 on: August 02, 2003, 07:35:54 PM »
Been away from the boards for a few days, but I’m not surprised this issue is still going. Remember, this thread is about whether gay marriages should be sanctioned by the state, not about making them illegal. Let’s be clear on one thing.  Most of our laws (except those that relate to safety) are based on what society thinks is moral.  Morality is not the sole domain of the religious.  All of you, every single one of you, have a moral code, whether it has its foundation in religious teaching or simply what you were taught by your parents.  To say we shouldn’t legislate morality is ludicrous.  Right now, we have laws against incest, pedophilia, beastiality, bigamy, polygamy, and (in a few states here and countries overseas) sodomy.  ALL of these were created based on what we as a society thought was moral, at least at the time.  Yes, there were practical reasons for some of them, such as incest, but the bottom line in deciding was our morality.

Those who are for making marriage between homosexuals legal do so with arguments that could easily extend to the other categories of behavior I’ve mentioned.  Incest? What two consenting adults to in private is none of our concern, right?  “But they could have deformed children, so it’s different,” you say.  What if one or both get “fixed” so they can’t?  So, you have no reasonable argument against legalizing incestuous marriage.  It should be okay, right?  Laws against incest were made back before there was birth control and abortion, after all.  And many great cultures of the past allowed it, especially in the case of maintaining pure bloodlines.

Pedophilia?  Well, it’s only pedophilia because law defines the legal age of consent at some arbitrary value, based on society’s moral view.  Change the legal age and it’s not pedophilia, at least in the legal sense.  Consent?  I had a science teacher in high school that certainly would have had the consent of most of the guys in my science class!  She was a fox!

What about bigamy/polygamy? I mean, after all, what consenting adults do in private is up to them, and none of government’s business.  It’s not against the law in most states here in the US to have a trio, so why can’t the three/four/five/six of them get married.  They all love each other deeply, and deserve the same rights as monogamous heterosexual couples, right?  So long as they can afford it, what’s the big deal?

Adultery? Well, it’s not a crime, but it is recognized as a civil offense in many states (those without no-fault divorce).  Do you believe it is right or wrong?  If it is wrong, do you support the right of one party to divorce with prejudice a spouse that cheats on their partner?  Should we give some kind of legal union to a married person and their “other” flame?  I mean, after all, if they truly love each other…er…others.

Beastiality?  This one isn’t about legalizing marriage between a person and an animal, but we’re certainly moving in that direction.  Did you know there is at least one state in the US that has declared that pets are not property, but “companions”?  You’re not a “pet owner” anymore, but a “caretaker” now.  “It’s about consent,” you say?  Really?  Do you have a pet dog or cat that you’ve had spade or neutered?  Did you have their consent first?  Did you get that cow’s okay before the slaughterhouse worker bashed it’s brains in and cut it up into entrée-sized chunks, sent it to your store so you could subject it to flame and eat it? No?  Didn’t think so.  So why is it illegal, when murdering the animal isn’t?  The bottom line is that you think it’s morally wrong, and that’s why you’re against it.  Face it.  Oh, and many supposed great civilizations of the past allowed human-animal sex.

The bottom line is, marriage should be between a man and a woman.  Extending that legal status to same-sex couples opens the door to a whole host of problems, and accelerates the further erosion of our society.  Where will it stop?
Sabre
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Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #214 on: August 02, 2003, 08:30:05 PM »
well said Sabre

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #215 on: August 02, 2003, 09:59:00 PM »
Thanks, Cap.  I've enjoyed your discourse as well.
Sabre
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Offline Rude

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« Reply #216 on: August 02, 2003, 11:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
It wasn't your first post that concerned me...it was the progression from "sharing" to something akin to a Jerry Falwell stance.

Allow me to demonstrate:

"Sharing" turned into this....


"I'm not good with leaving folks in places which ultimately destroy them....as to documented cases, I have no idea....my point was only that to live outside of Gods will for any of us, myself included, is to slowly destroy who God created us to be."


or


"is it right that two men sleep together or is there no right or wrong? Perversion cool with everyone....is it all free? Should our children be encouraged to accept whatever lifstyle a person chooses for themselves, irregardless of the harm it brings to a society?"


I mean...YIKES man.


Curv....

Sorry my stance offends you, but I don't believe homosexuality is ok....I believe what God's word says of it.

Your friend is a fine person Im sure...still, according to God's word, it's a sin and is wrong.

Ya see, someday God will judge this earth of ours and it won't be our convenient and comfortable morality, or what sounds right to us that will matter.

It's our nature to justify our behavior....why should we want to believe that anything we do would bring death....that doesn't feel good and isn't comfortable. Homosexuality is no worse in Gods eyes than adultery or promiscuity or stealing....all have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory.

Now that might not feel good to any of us, but does that change the truth only becuase it's inconvenient or uncomfortable?

Remember, I said it's the lifestyle that I detest, not the person. Of course, you do not share my faith so this is really a waste of virtual ink I suppose:)

Cyas Up!

Offline Rude

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« Reply #217 on: August 02, 2003, 11:37:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
How anyone can equate, say, sex with a preteen girl in some Bangkok hell-hole or sex with a chicken with consensual sex between two adult men or women is absolutely beyond my understanding.  



I'm assuming you mean this in a 'go to hell, do not collect 200 pounds' sort of destruction. So a guy, like Curval describes, who devotes his life to helping others is condemned to share eternity with mass murderers and Budweiser drinkers because of where he put his nob on an evening?


Like I told Curval....Gods word to you is just a book...this really isn't worth the virtual ink....besides, you'll believe what you want. Just remember, God will not be mocked...by you or myself. Your free to make your own choices...I'm not suprised in the least to have you or anyone else view me as peculiar or wrong...it's how it's supposed to be.

Offline Frogm4n

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« Reply #218 on: August 03, 2003, 12:52:14 AM »
hey rude im god and i say i dont give a damn.


prove im wrong.

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #219 on: August 03, 2003, 01:44:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Frogm4n
im god.

prove im wrong.


There is no way God could make it into the FBD's.

Offline SOB

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« Reply #220 on: August 03, 2003, 03:05:58 AM »
He posted nekkid pics of Mary.  By charter, we had to let him in.


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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #221 on: August 03, 2003, 03:56:04 AM »
Theres a thing I don't understand with gays.. why do they want marriage?
Can't they be gays without marriage... what sort of magic thing this marriage is?

Offline AVRO1

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« Reply #222 on: August 03, 2003, 06:13:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Curv....

Sorry my stance offends you, but I don't believe homosexuality is ok....I believe what God's word says of it.

Your friend is a fine person Im sure...still, according to God's word, it's a sin and is wrong.

Ya see, someday God will judge this earth of ours and it won't be our convenient and comfortable morality, or what sounds right to us that will matter.

It's our nature to justify our behavior....why should we want to believe that anything we do would bring death....that doesn't feel good and isn't comfortable. Homosexuality is no worse in Gods eyes than adultery or promiscuity or stealing....all have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory.

Now that might not feel good to any of us, but does that change the truth only becuase it's inconvenient or uncomfortable?

Remember, I said it's the lifestyle that I detest, not the person. Of course, you do not share my faith so this is really a waste of virtual ink I suppose:)

Cyas Up!


You have the right to believe what you want.
But you dont have the right to tell others that something is wrong because your religion says it is.

If Bush passes is law then you are in effect telling other religions who dont have a problem with gay unions that they are wrong.
Freedom of religion is in your constitution.

What gives POTUS the right to decide for others what is right and what is wrong according to is beliefs?
Can he prove is beliefs are more right then someone else?
No he cant, so he as no morale authority just like every single person on this planet.

So why should he decide what is right and what is wrong?


Just something for you to think about.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #223 on: August 03, 2003, 07:08:33 AM »
first, which religion is ok with homosexual acts?  

second, as far as I am aware of Canada is the only country in the history of the world that recognizes gay marriage (are there others?  anybody know of any others) if there are others there aren't many.  the idea that homsexuality is immoral predates Christianity by a few thousand years at least, so I don't see how you keep coming back to this being a Christian ideal being inforced on other religions.

and again it's not a religious issue it's a moral one.  
do you find pedophilia immoral?
adultery immoral?
incest?
bestiality?
necrophilia?

where do YOU draw the line?  you keep on saying that we have no right to draw the line at gay marriages.  no right to say we tolorate the deviant behavior but this is to far, we will not sanction it and give it the aproval of the gov't.  

so I'm asking you.  which of the above behaviors are offensive to you?  just list immoral or ok after each of the items on the list.  I'm very curious to see where you draw the line (morally)?  are all of the above behaviors ok, and worthy of aproval by the state.do you draw the line anywhere?  

should pedophiles be allowed to marry children?  incest, should brother and sister be allowed to wed?  how about the necros, should they be allowed to marry a corpse if they find one they truly love?

so where is your line that you feel we shouldn't cross as a society

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #224 on: August 03, 2003, 08:27:02 AM »
Fishu, health, insurance and other benifits extend to spouse and kids.  That's the 'magic'.



Mine is Apathy.


Taboo predates christianity?
Yeah Apathy, those Greeks rarely practiced homosexuality.  Only during the week and everyone involved in the army (it was required in sparta) and sometimes on weekends.  That's practically never.

The line we should not cross is making political decisions that would prevent two hot chicks from having sex.