Author Topic: So how bout this for a way to make the maps fun for now...  (Read 2760 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2003, 08:45:09 PM »
It's unfortunate sometimes though that some on both sides ruin the CV/land battles.  The other night there was a good CV battle when the Rooks were trying to invade one of our western islands and the resulting furball was a blast.  Had a great time but unfortunately we were forced to sink the CV and end the fun fight.  If the Rooks hadn't been so insistant on trying to take our field, we would have continued the fight but they kept spawning LVTs, shelling our town and bombing our fuel and ammo that we finally had to pull the plug and send the CV to the bottom.  Of course afterwards the Rooks involved the in fight yelled and cried about the mean Knights taking their ball and going home.  Can't blame the strat weenies for that one, all they were doing was protecting a base that was under threat of capture.


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Offline Steve

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« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2003, 08:51:54 PM »
Geez 42.. you're missing the point entirely.  Lost of people .. lots of them, feel the cv fights are the most fun. Big Isles really brings this to the fore.  Tougher Cv's, longer cv fights,  more fun for lots of people, lots of them.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2003, 11:51:30 PM »
Perks?

Organization?

YGBSM.

As somebody said, the gulf between us is incredibly wide and there is apparently NO comprehension of what we like to do and why.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2003, 04:20:45 AM »
In all my 4 years with Brand-W, I never saw BBS combat like this! I never saw people arguing over game objectives. Here, we have one group arguing for more "fun" (ie. furballs - well, to each his own ) and another group of players who enjoy the combat that arises out of attempts to capture bases in addition to the capture itself. But then we have a sort of subculture that wants to piggyback on the second group, and scoop up as many cheap kills as possible as our foe lies bruised and bleeding on the canvas.

I tend to agree with JB42 about the carrier dweebs. I was once gooning to a base where there were at least 20 CDs vulching the field, but none keeping an eye on the town to make sure it stayed down or covering my approach. My goon got picked off by the lone 190 cherrypicker who had come in from another field. I was left with the very strong impression that their score sheet was their top priority.

Just yesterday, I was at 216 - and DrDea was there - he was about the only guy working with me. Our bish CV was just off 216, but V219 was up and the rook GVs were spawning east of 219 and rolling into the 216 town. DrDea and I were the only two concentrating on keeping the VH down at both 216 and 219. I then set about the task of getting rid of the GVs, as prhim was nearing the area in an LVT.

How much help did I get? Precious little. Far too many guys circling the airfield, and none working with me at the town. Even when the last FH went down, some hopeful dweebs lingered at the airfield- just in case... Rook cherrypickers came in at 15K in their runstangs, and on at least 8 occasions, I got bounced without receiving a 6-call. On at least two of those, the cherrypicker succeeded! It's very hard to set up the right trajectory for a bomb drop and to be constantly checking one's own 6.

We had jehu gooning in at least twice, prhim making repeated LVT runs. We could have taken that base in 20 minutes. But no. Vulch-vulch-vulch is the order of the day. In the end, the outcome was determined by the only factor that seems to govern this game: Numerical supremacy. Bish got the base, but after about an hour.

Folks might say "we want to keep the CV off shore so we can have great fights and furball action", when what they really mean is they want to vulch and pad out their scores and think what aces they are.

It doesn't have to be that way. Rooks took 216 back less than 15 minutes later. Because they planned it and were organised.

I thought "what's the use", and went off to do some cherrypicking of my own. :D

But I can only do that for so long before getting bored, and want to join an organised campaign.

Gameplay in Brand-W was not polarised in this way. But here, some of us have had to make substantial adjustments to accommodate the gaminess and vulch mentality which exists at the opposite end of the gameplay spectrum.

Folks who like the "furball action" can be quite resolute in not going to the DA, and invent all kinds of reasons not to.

But reading between the lines of various threads this past 6 months, and by making my own observations of AH gameplay, I am left in no doubt of the real reason folks don't want to go to the DA:  There would be no free piggyback ride.

Harden the CV? That would just swing the game in favour of the carrier dweeb vulchers. (Purple sig text applies) My feeling is that if they want to park the CV close to the target base, they deserve to lose that CV if they don't take the base within 20 minutes.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2003, 08:41:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DrDea
That was a sarcastic comment.If all the people that loved the furball,and I like em alot myself,were to all go to the DA they could have a blast.The thing is the lack of 2 things keeps them from doing it.1 and the biggest,,,NO perks.  2  and almost as big I would wager.No organisation.If someone came into the MA and said hey,I have an arena in H2H or in DA  need "X" amount of furballers  I would bet alot went.


First of all....perks are meaningless...I could care less and would gladly give them away.

Secondly....Organization? Where did you come up with this stuff?

Look....no one is trying to tell you how to fly....there are just some in this game that would like to see some changes that would yield the kind of fights that they enjoy....and you have a problem with that?

As to going to the DA....I do that often becuase of the exciting aspects of AH, like darkness and the ease of porking fuel at basis so I have a limited choice of planes to fly if I want to engage the enemy. The bad thing about the DA is a large part of this game we play is not about the fight, but the community and the friends we all have here. So you're solution is to have us isolate ourselves from the community?

It seems to me that the spoiled kids on this block are the uptight strat guys that don't want any options given to others with the exception of what they want for themselves.

My earnest hope is that TOD will carry those who enjoy missions and more realistic WW2 fighter/bomber ops far away from the players who enjoy a fight.

Air to Air combat is why many have played this sim since it's inception....now since strat has been slowly added, you guys feel like we should just go to the DA.....what could be better for a strat player than to march across a map without a fight, then to pat yourselves on the back like the self gratuitous buncha girlscouts that you are?

Bottom line here is this....HT will do what he feels will cashflow his business....hopefully he will accomplish this with the intro of AH2 and that offering will feed us all what we need to have fun, which is what this is all supposed to be about in the first place.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2003, 08:57:39 AM »
Quote
Folks might say "we want to keep the CV off shore so we can have great fights and furball action", when what they really mean is they want to vulch and pad out their scores and think what aces they are.


How do you vulch a field when the fight takes place over the water and in between the CV and the base?

Trust me....score to players who want the challenge of a fight is not even given a thought. Explain to me how fighting in the weeds, outnumbered, will pad my score?

It seems the style of never engaging without a numerical advantage or an altitude advantage, always landing your kills and never risking your virtual hide will pad a score.

Again....you guys want things your way and feel threatened by the suggestions made by those of us who want to fight heads up....you fear any change and are not even willing to allow us a better enviroment for the lower and faster fights which we enjoy.

In all my years of this, I've never seen such a large and vocal contingent of gutless wonders. I flew WB's for 4 years Beetle...it was about air to air combat, not strat. Your little world is not the norm.

So be it....we all disagree and in the end, Dale will do what he pleases....we will be left with what we get....hopefully the game will offer fun for all of us.

I've had enough bantering back and forth....these discussions have been nothing more than a giant exercise in futility.

Later

Offline DrDea

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« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2003, 08:57:51 AM »
First of all your getting me way wrong.Im no strat player.Im no exclusive furbasller either.I do mostly what the squad is doing when I get in and normaly that involvs fighting between 2 bases.Im not saying Furballers should exclude themselves the MA.What I said was basicly you never see someone com into the MA and say who wants to go to the DA and do some furballing?That could actually be fun till some jagoff started porking the oposition fields or the typical vulchers showed up.Personaly,I would rather furball but as Beetle said,I WILL keep an eye on strat while Im doing it.Gotta be flexable.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2003, 09:17:59 AM »
You "go to the DA" guys miss something else that Rude didn't mention.

The DA really doesn't have a "map". It has a bunch of little areas setup for various altitude engagments.

Now, if it had a map, with canyons, hills, oceans, CV groups it would be a much more populated place. ESPECIALLY if there were NO STRAT. I'd be in there pretty much all the time and I suspect the DA population would be much higher than it is now.

Be an interesting experiment to put one of the better small maps into the DA and turn the strat features off.

Beyond that though, all this tearful lamenting of folks that won't "join the mission" and "play like a team" has earned you guys AH2: TOD.

I hope you walk the walk when it comes out.  You're getting what you've wailed for; be sure and use it all the time, OK?

We're shore gunna miss yas!
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Offline hazed-

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« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2003, 09:28:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
C'mon NB:)

You know that by making adjustments which enhance and prolong the faster lower kind of fights, that in of itself will in no way take away from a strat players fun.

I logged on last night and located the largest collection of colored pixels on the map....went to the base which was under attack and found the fuel at 25%...tha's cool I said...I'll just defend here a bit....well, the ack was down and the field was being vulched.

So....I went to a nearby field(sector and a quarter away) grabbed my 38(I'm trying to learn to fly this thing), only to find, yup, the fule at 25%....at that loadout, only the pony could get me to the fight with a chance of rtb'in...at best, a short stay there as well.

So....I went to the next closest field....repaeated the same, fuel at 25%. Now some of you may think that I should have just grabbed from a field 2 or 3 sectors away and wasted 20 minutes gettin to a fight...if so, thats your right. Me, personally, want to engage quickly as I do not have many opportunities to fly.

Now I believe the strat guys should be able to take out fuel....just not with one plane and so easily.

I left the MA and went to the DA where guess what? It was getting dark....in the DA it was getting dark? What's up with that?
Hopefull, HTC will fix the dark DA issue.

All we want is for the hordes of strat super missions to earn their victories and not just sit on folks and give them no options. Multiple CV's would help accomplish this while only giving the strat guys more strat targets which should give them a woody I would think?

Do you disagree?


in all honesty I dont like having loads of fields porked for fuel but i will say this , you are ignoring the fact that maybe 20 or so players have enjoyed themselves knocking down that fuel. maybe more if it was a couple of big missions that did it. You are also ignoring the fact that had you been there sooner you would have been able to fight those players AT those rear fields.

 Im 99% sure that somewhere on that map as you entered there was a base with full fuel  some 1 or 2 sectors from an enemy base. Ok so no one was flying there? well if you go there maybe they will start to defend it? If you want to continue to fight there you had better stop all hose attacks :)

Its the same old thing. AH is like NB said a multi-faceted game. The tools are there to destroy and defend and people are allowed to use them. If you dont like fuel being porked then you must defend your bases, organise attacks or resupply etc. If you dont WANT to help stop the fuel being hit but prefer to just fight aircraft and ignore the ground war stuff then you cant expect others to care when you complain its down and your fun is being ruined. Half the people you are complaining to have had a successful and fun fight or attack in order to take out that fuel. They might be thinking I cant launch in this area as theres too many enemy aircraft, If i destroy the 2 bases X and Y they wont be able to return.They kill those bases unapposed and whos to blame? :)

like i said i dont like it either when i cant find fuel but then its the same for everyone and everyone could if they desired stop it happening.seems instead they prefer to just complain and let those attacks get through.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 09:33:27 AM by hazed- »

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2003, 09:30:39 AM »
Wasn't "fly what you want, whatever way you want, and don't whine about it" your criteria?

 We are the ones who feel "threatened"? Grow up, please!

 ...

 Nobody isolates nobody. You people isolate yourselves.


 You think we have it easy?

 Trying to coax and convince people into following strategic suggestions ain't no picnic. The temptation of furballs ruins many things, and one idiot in a mission can ruin everything in one flick of the wrong button. People furball around where we don't think its wise to furball around all the time.

 But do we come here crying and slobbering, "the furballers are hurting our existence?".. Who starts these whoopeeed threads anyway? Certainly not us.


  The MA has both furballers and strat people. With time, things flux around, and sometimes strategic play seems to lead the game, other times, mindless but action packed furballs are prominent.

 It's a compromise between  many things, and us strat weenies have learned a long time ago that organizing people to nuts and bolts is impossible, and in many cases, people will choose to ignore what we see reasonable or fit.

 Usually people do what they want to do, therefore, when we really feel we have to do something, we do it ourselves. If we can't, then we've learned not to whine about it. Venting at country channel "you idjits", is probably the closest thing that comes near to one of these lame threads.

 We mad our compromises and learned to live withit.

 I suggest you learn with your own set of compromises. Geez, furballs lasting one~ two hours are pretty common. When one fades away, usually another furball forms some place else. Isn't that enough a compromise?

 You want to do that all the time, and don't want us strat guys intervening with that, and you're saying we're trying to isolate you?

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2003, 09:35:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You "go to the DA" guys miss something else that Rude didn't mention.

The DA really doesn't have a "map". It has a bunch of little areas setup for various altitude engagments.

Now, if it had a map, with canyons, hills, oceans, CV groups it would be a much more populated place. ESPECIALLY if there were NO STRAT. I'd be in there pretty much all the time and I suspect the DA population would be much higher than it is now.

Be an interesting experiment to put one of the better small maps into the DA and turn the strat features off.

Beyond that though, all this tearful lamenting of folks that won't "join the mission" and "play like a team" has earned you guys AH2: TOD.

I hope you walk the walk when it comes out.  You're getting what you've wailed for; be sure and use it all the time, OK?

We're shore gunna miss yas!



good idea that doesnt affect anyone in the MA only to please a few, why not email HTC and ask for it toad? Im sure theres hardly a sole in AH that wants the current DA map 24/7
As for AH2 TOD it may not be anything like what people want. We havent played it yet. What i would say is if it is 'right' and does feel just like being in an airforce duringWW2 then i willl want to be in there most of the time. The ma I'll use for the quick fix stuff and the TOD for serious gaming.I think id split my time between then 70/30 in favour of TOD if its 'right'.
If it isnt set up right toad its wrong to claim we got what we asked for. The CT is a prime example. When people dont have to go there they dont bother because 300+ people in another arena looks more inviting, With TOD , hopefully it will look so good that most will try there first then filter out into MA , etc when they feel like a change
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 09:42:45 AM by hazed- »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2003, 09:38:45 AM »
I think he's out of the office right now.

Anyway, I have chatted with him pretty recently without directly discussing the MA. After that, I decided to just wait and see what the TOD does to the MA population.

If all the "join my mission", "play like a team", "protect my goon", "win the war" guys go to TOD and play it every moment they're online to get more rank to wear on their sig block....

we may not need anything changed in the MA.  ;)
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2003, 09:58:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
How do you vulch a field when the fight takes place over the water and in between the CV and the base?

It seems the style of never engaging without a numerical advantage or an altitude advantage, always landing your kills and never risking your virtual hide will pad a score.
Rude - saw it yesterday. About 10 bish hovering over the enemy base to beat up a few N1Ks, LA7s, Zekes and Yaks. The bish had taken off from the CV and had flown to the base.

Yes I do try to land my kills. Especially as my plane of choice off the CV is the CHog. I'm not going to throw away 13pp every sortie. I fly the Chog off the CV so that I'm ready when those ju88s come in.

I'm not going to say which style of play is "right" or "best", but what I do observe is that whereas the strat guys look at the map, decide what to do and get on with it, it's the furball guys that are always the ones to whine to HTC to have the game changed - changes to STRAT of all things! In another thread, Furious even whined to have HQ hardened. Gimme a freaking break!  It's not enough that buffs have to fly right across the map to get to enemy HQ. It's not enough that they're unlikely to get much fighter support and may be sitting ducks. It's not enough that killing HQ requires a crapload of bombs. It's not enough that the Me163 is now available near HQ as a very efficient buff killer. No. The furballers want things to be even easier still. They want the HQ hardened so that they will always be able to use the map to find furballs.

I don't mind if furballers want nothing more than to furball, but I do object to strat changes to make their lives easier because they can't be arsed to defend their own strat targets because it's not fun.

Anyway, a good thread. I find myself in agreement with JB42, Kweassa and Muckmaw.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2003, 10:37:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
. When people dont have to go there they dont bother because 300+ people in another arena looks more inviting,


Tell me, Hazed, how does this fit in with the "go to the DA" suggestions?

:D

As far as the CT, the available tools were given to the players to create what they wanted to create. Now, some may complain that the tools did not allow them to create "nirvana". But they were given as much as was available.

TOD? What's the focus? Scheduled missions with DEFINED OBJECTIVES that require teamwork. Success depends on accomplishing the mission goals, something the "strat" guys venerate. Survival is key for the player's avatar to rise in rank, get more authority, etc, etc.; sounds like the much sought after "death penalty" you hear so much about on this BBS. Rank is awarded, if I understand it correctly, for accomplishing the mission and living, thus a reward system even greater than perk points is in place.

In short, I think all the deep detailed strat, teamplay, lofty goals of winning the war and personal recognition through a high ranking avatar are there.

What else could the "strat" guys want?

You want to know my guesstimate? I think most of the strat players will give it a reasonable try but won't like it. Simply because it's more work than fun.

Which is something that some of us will know intuitively without ever trying it.

Unfortunately, then they'll come back to the MA.  :D

Quote
Beetle
it's the furball guys that are always the ones to whine to HTC to have the game changed - changes to STRAT of all things!
[/b]

Before you post stuff like this, you should really do a good review of the BBS since beta. Yeah, I know you're a relative newcomer, but the history is there for all to read. Making statements like this just shows you haven't done your homework.

The short version is this: in the beginning, beta, there was essentially no "strategy" other than the old AW type fight and easy base capture. It was a fabulous fun-filled game. However, there were campaigns on this very BBS for a "deeper, more meaningful" style of gameplay. It wasn't the "furball" contingent that made those requests; it was "strat" players seeking changes to strat. And so we arrive here, at this point, where the folks that just want to have fun are shoving to push the pendulum BACK, to reverse some of the overwhelming tide of changes to strat asked for by strat players.
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Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2003, 10:54:28 AM »
Question:

Knowing we're not getting any changes until AH2...

What if HT opened up a arena for furballs only? For example, let's say we used the SEA whenever there are no SE's going on. We could make and add maps that are conducive to furballs. We could adjust hardness of strat, and we could dictate what aircraft are available.

If it really caught on, I would think this would elminate the problem of furballers losing thier touch with their community because the furballers would be in the SEA.

Bottom line, I think Rude...er was it Toad...I get em mixed up...is right. Once AH:TOD comes out, strat will set up there, and if it works, the MA would be furball central.

2 problems I see here, though. Say ToD works and the Strats move to the new arena. We're still going to have griefers, 2 week wonders, and bored tools bombing the fuel etc in the MA. Chances are there would have to be major changes in the MA to accomodate Furball Nirvana.

Second problem. Say these changes are made, but ToD flops. You've got the strats coming back into a MA with no strat. This may be a recipe for subscritions being lost. My guess would be if ToD flops, HTC will water it down.

Personally, I can tell you without a doubt, if AH became a game that was a WWII version of quake, I would look elsewhere for my entertainment.