Author Topic: Church and State  (Read 1081 times)

Offline Frogm4n

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Church and State
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2003, 12:52:56 PM »
i thinkl the big stinky sloppy mess with prayer in school is that they want to do it at mass events , and every morning on the anouncements. When you do that it actually respects a established religion.

When i was in high school we had a moment of silence. that worked out fine. I am an atheist i could think of porn i downloaded the night before, and the religious people could pray to themselves.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 01:11:41 PM by Frogm4n »

Offline miko2d

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2003, 01:09:33 PM »
In fact, the 1st amendment guarantees that it will not promote, nor interfere with the free exercise of religion. This is a far cry from expunging religion from the public square, which is the slant the ACLU and other non Christian groups would have you believe our founding fathers intended.

 Public property and institutions are common property of all citizens, paid for and maintained by taxes coercively collected from them under the threat of violence.

 Supposedely the taxes are collected to pay for the functions related to the government.
 Forcing people to pay for religious accutrements and rituals (which may be contrary to their religion) is a clear case of establishment of a religion - specifically prohibited.


"...each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

 Right - he advises that we should all strive for it personally[i/], not have it imposed by the government.

 miko

Offline Montezuma

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Church and State
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2003, 01:12:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
no law respecting an establishment of religion- I take this to mean the gov't won’t get involved in how churches are set up.


You got it wrong.

Offline Frogm4n

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Church and State
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2003, 01:20:57 PM »
the government isnt involved in how chruch's are set up.

Offline miko2d

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Church and State
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2003, 01:55:48 PM »
Frogm4n: the government isnt involved in how chruch's are set up.

 No. It is only involved in converting our courthouses and schools into christian churches - by adorning them with religious acoutrements and conducting prayer services and religious oaths on the taxpayer's dime.

 miko

Offline john9001

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Church and State
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2003, 02:04:12 PM »
i'm suprised you gamesters don't know how to game the game.

take the question of the 10 commandents in schools or govt buildings, you have made 10 paintings depicting each commandment and hang them up and call it "art", no one is against "art".

xmas , dec 25 , is really the celebration of the winter solstice, and xmas trees are pagan anyway.

Offline crowMAW

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Re: Church and State
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2003, 02:25:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government - far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

- James Madison, Founding Father, US
President and chief architect of the
US Constitution.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ."

- Patrick Henry, Founding Father, signer of
the Constitution.

Your friend has been reading too much from revisionist historian David Barton.  These two quotes are false.  Barton has even admitted that he did not have a valid source for these quotes, but instead he says that they are statements that these gentlemen could have said because he thinks they are consistent with their character:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=20

Madison was a staunch church-state separatist.  His essay Memorial and Remonstrance[/i] demonstrates that pretty clearly.

Offline myelo

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Church and State
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2003, 11:25:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
Personally I think your friend hit that one out of the park.  


…it looks like he didn’t get all of that one after all. MT had him played perfectly and makes the routine grab, well short of the warning tack.

Just another noisy out.
myelo
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Offline GtoRA2

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Church and State
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2003, 11:35:53 AM »
Nice reply MT!

I am with you on this issue. I seen no need for any influence from ANY religion in our government.

Do we get to see his reply?:D

Offline JBA

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Church and State
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2003, 11:39:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
MT,

The quotes by the founding fathers you listed in your original post speak for themselves.  If you check further I think you will find that those sentiments were not unusual.  Most of their compatriots felt the same way.  However much the country may have changed in the last 200 years, THAT is how they felt about the matter at that time.

Regards, Shuckins


Yes your rigth shuckins in 200 years, 90% of the country when polled still consider themselves Christanins.  I can see how much we've changed.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
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Offline Leslie

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Church and State
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2003, 02:45:54 PM »
Seems like the First Amendment is clear cut.  It states Congress shall make no laws establishing religion.  This is the operative clause of the sentence.  To me, this means there are no federal laws saying it is illegal to not participate in an official state religion, i.e you gotta pay taxes cause that's the law, but you don't hav'ta go to state church on Sunday.  Not sure this is a great example, but this could be compared to mandatory DUI school attendance as part of a judge's ruling in the case of drunken driving.  It's the law you attend as part of the deal.  This law is on the books, and not a judge's interpretation.

Concerning removing prayer from school.  Imo, there is no constitutional basis for this.  Congress has not legislated mandatory prayer in public schools, in accordance with the first amendment.  A public school principal doesn't have the law making authority to become involved one way or the other, neither enforcing nor denying prayer.  This is why we have a Congress, made up of representatives and senators, so power is not invested in a single person, such as a school principal.

It would seem to make more sense, to allow individual communities to deal with the prayer issue as they see fit, and this would be in complete accordance with another right as mentioned in the Bill of Rights, the freedom of assembly...the right of like minded citizens to assemble in the pursuit of whatever peaceable and lawful agenda they choose...life, liberty and happiness.

This is a great country, where people have freedom to live anywhere they feel community standards are suited to their personal philosophy and beliefs.  If a community is predominantly Christian, for example, does it not violate constitutional spirit to deny prayer in public schools?  What about in a Muslim community, where prayer is a religious requirement for orthodox Muslims.

I believe parents should be the guiding authorities, where school officials, working together with the PTA, set guidelines.  This is where the most amicable solutions could be worked out, to accomodate everyone's religious concerns.  I see a big problem with the idea of a centralized, federal bureaucracy setting the same standards for all public schools.  If anything, this is detrimental to education, dulls the edges of thinking, and dismisses individuality as irrelevent.  Outcome based education is an example.  And if you need an example of good schools, look no further than religious schools.  

From my somewhat limited experience with all this, I gather that the real issue has little to do with prayer offending or fomenting conflict among diverse religions.  But rather it is a power exercise played out in the courts, somewhat like a game of chess, with lawyers as the pawns running defense and setting up moves for the royal court of Federal and Supreme court justices.

It is also my opinion that those who initiate the lawsuits, are, for the most part, more interested in causing trouble than they are with seeing justice done.



Les

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2003, 03:15:55 PM »
Prayer has not been removed from schools.

That is has been is mere right wing propaganda and left wing ignorance.

What the law says, right now, is that people in positions of authority cannot lead prayer services nor can prayer services be unavoidable within reason.

For examples:

A teacher leading a prayer service at the start of class is illegal because the teacher is a person of authority and the service would be unavoidable.

A student leading a prayer service over the intercom is illegal because by using the intercom it appears to have official endosement and is unavoidable.

A student lead prayer service in an unused room during lunch is legal because it is both avoidable and lacks any official endosement.

A student praying silently in class (say, prior to a test) is legal because it bears no hint of official endosement.
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Offline Leslie

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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2003, 03:16:56 PM »
About removing the Ten Commandments from court houses:

Well, we have a big deal going on here in Alabama right now, with Judge Roy Moore and his monument.  It has already cost Alabama taxpayers over $130 million, and Justice Moore intends to take the issue all the way to the top.

I don't know...it'll be interesting to see the outcome if it does make it to the Supreme Court.  Again, imo, having the monument does not violate the establishment clause.  Judge Moore put it there and payed for it himself, not Congress.  It's his courtroom.  I don't know what leeway judges have when it comes to what is on display in their courtrooms, but I'm guessing they have the final say.


Moore's justification for having the monument there is to acknowledge God, Who is the ultimate judge.  I'm not a particularly religious person, although I do acknowledge God.  I have no problem with the monument being there, provided it's in compliance with safety standards and doesn't offer any hazards to life or limb.

Just out of curiosity, and not to become involved in a prolonged debate...why does the presence of the Ten Commandments in a court house cause such a big deal, i.e why do some folks want it removed?  




Les

Offline gofaster

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Church and State
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2003, 03:44:58 PM »
God can own my soul, but I wouldn't trust Him to run my city!

My interpretation of the founding of this country is that, since the colonies were composed of various peoples escaping from various religious persecutions, that it was recognized that the government could only stand if it was run irrespective of the matters of Church.  While certain enclaves of people may have incorporated fundamental morality based on their particular religion into their local and state laws, for the most part these differences were kept separate from the federal government (just ask the Mormons and Hawaiians).  Even commonly held violations of morality, such as murder, are violations of state law rather than federal law.

Regarding church and state, there are more than a few prison inmates who petition regularly for ganga use to be permitted as part of the rastafarian religious practice.  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: August 15, 2003, 03:56:15 PM by gofaster »

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2003, 04:20:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Prayer has not been removed from schools.

That is has been is mere right wing propaganda and left wing ignorance.

What the law says, right now, is that people in positions of authority cannot lead prayer services nor can prayer services be unavoidable within reason.

For examples:

A teacher leading a prayer service at the start of class is illegal because the teacher is a person of authority and the service would be unavoidable.

A student leading a prayer service over the intercom is illegal because by using the intercom it appears to have official endosement and is unavoidable.

A student lead prayer service in an unused room during lunch is legal because it is both avoidable and lacks any official endosement.

A student praying silently in class (say, prior to a test) is legal because it bears no hint of official endosement.




Thanks Karnak .  Kinda figured that is the way things are, and I understand prayer and personal belief is, and probably should be a private matter in school.  It certainly should not be intimidating or forced upon others.

I do recall one news item from several months back, where a school bus driver was fired for leading a prayer on the bus.  She filed suit because of the dismissal, and I suppose the case is pending.  Haven't heard anything about it lately.  In this case however, she asked the parents in advance by mailed letters, if they were OK with the prayer.  Every one of them said yes, please do this.  Every single one of the students wanted this also.

So this would seem to be an instance where everyone wanted this, and the school became unconstitutionally involved by denying prayer.  Though the federal courts directed no mandate directly, it seems like some school principals are totally confused, and thus, to avoid confrontation of any kind, they broad-brush the issue by denying what, here, amounted to a unanimous concensus of the participating citizens.  Sorta like a zero tolerance policy.

Taking a look at what was accomplished in this case, a bus driver lost her job, lawyers were called in, parents and children were disappointed or downright angry, and justice was not served, at least until the whole thing is reviewed in court.  Let's hope, if any good came from it, that some of the gray areas are investigated in more detail.

Lawsuits have public school authorities mired in confusion, is this not so?

Anyhow, what I was talking about in the first post was, why not let the parents and teachers decide how they want their community school to operate?  After all, they're the ones living in that community, and if we get back to the freedom of assembly language in the Bill of Rights, it would seem to be in accordance with our constitution.



Les