Author Topic: Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD  (Read 3073 times)

Offline Grimm

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2003, 08:09:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shiva
You miss the fact that it will draw players out of the MA,


Naw..  I didnt miss that fact..  I even said so myself.   I pretty much agree with your asessment.

The reason I stated that was because I read so many posts that say to some extent...   "The MA will be good again after AH:TOD"  Like AH:TOD is being created to fix gameplay issues in the MA.  (most posts in this thread are based on MA gameplay)

AH:TOD will probably have little effect on MA.   All the Mission guys wont leave the MA,  Porkers will still wallow there as well. I dont think the Fighter Pukes will leave the kill a minute enviroment of the MA either  ;)  

Yes,  Some people will find AH:TOD to be a new home and that great too.    Man, I hope AH:TOD turns out really cool and we can all enjoy it when it arrives.  

If it does indeed draw many new players to its arena and AH, and provides HTC with more revenue,  It will certainly be sucessful.

{edit addtion}  BTW,  Liked your 99 bases song :)  LOL!

Offline Maniac

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3817
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2003, 09:03:31 PM »
As long as you get nice shiny medals then ill be there :D
Warbirds handle : nr-1 //// -nr-1- //// Maniac

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2003, 09:54:19 PM »
LOL Beet. Yeah, you DID teach Laz that technique.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2003, 08:59:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Hi, my name is Steve, and I'm inexorably turning into a furballaholic.


The pure truth has a way of setting you free:)

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2003, 09:42:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
LOL Beet. Yeah, you DID teach Laz that technique.
What, the vodka? hehe, that was just an to Creamo. :)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2003, 10:06:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
You could always pork the fuel. What's changed is before why would you want to?[/color] It was about the fight. Kill me and I'll come back looking for you. There was always field capture and resets etc.

This all began after there was a perk reward offered for resets. The gave a whole new meaning to resets.


No, I was referring to this part that you so conveniently overlook.

When the focus was on the fight, the rudimentary strategy options weren't a problem.

When the focus shifted to "winning the war" and strategy options like 7 resupply sorties to restore fuel a +25% were implemented problems became evident.

As even you apparently now realize.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2003, 10:37:36 AM »
So what caused the shift to winning the war? The perk point award system? Fix that. Don't try to remedy the situation by tinkering with something else (target "hardness"). Else you're likely to end up with an additional problem, while the first one remains unsolved.

Just for the record, I don't care about winning the war - never online long enough for that to matter, and there's no cohesion/coordination amongst the typical "it's my $14.95" group of AHers for the end result to depend on anything but numbers. But I DO prefer the scenario by which the battles and combat arise from one country's attempts to capture a field, and the other country's attempts to defend it. Just upping fighters to go against other fighters is an exercise in futility, IMO. YOMD.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2003, 08:28:36 PM »
Tell me Beet1e, how balanced do you think it is when one guy can drop the fuel to 25% in two good passes but it takes 1 guy 7 goon sorties (or 7 guys 1 goon sortie.. however you want to look at it)?

If you think that's pretty well balanced, what's your position on one guy dropping an H-bomb on HQ and taking it out until reset occurs. That balanced too?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2003, 03:27:33 AM »
Hehe, Mr. Toad. :)  The great champion of the F-word – freedom – in the MA. But oh! It’s all coming home to roost now. ;)  I remember the day when you used to chastise me about trying to “infringe on the freedom of others” by suggesting a different, more coordinated style of gameplay, or of being a “generalissimo” for lamenting the fact that other people “didn’t play my way”.  What have we here? Mr. Toad, lamenting the fact that people are too organised at porking the fuel, and whose style of gameplay is therefore not as Mr. Toad deems fit! But don’t worry, Bufo. We’re on the same side in this really. Well, we’re on opposite sides facing a common enemy in the middle – the suicide dweeb.

I had no idea, until reading Batz’s explanation about the perk reward system, that there were guys here that are so desperate as to need to force the reset just to get perks. On voxx channel a few weeks ago, I heard someone saying something about the side switchers – switching to the winning side just prior to reset in order to get perks. Pathetic.

What we have here now is an arena full of kidz/tardz who have learned to game the game to such an extent that it’s bad for the game. AH has been a victim of its own success in attracting huge numbers of new customers, but many of these, it would seem, have no interest in WW2, and just want to see stuff blow up, get undeserved perks, and carry on. Complete wanktards.

Can you now see why I was disappointed that the mission arena concept did not appear in the current release, just before last Christmas? Can you now see why I favour a game that encourages more structured gameplay, rather than the no-holds-barred fragfest we have now?

You have in the past pooh-poohed the idea of returning to base to land kills – no point in continuing the flight, once the last round has been fired, you have said. Lazs would be quick to point out that landing kills would adversely affect k/t – so it would, but k/t means bugger all – too many variables for it to have any bearing on anything. I have suggested the Brand-W approach of tripling scores/perks for landed kills, as I know from experience that this would eradicate a huge amount of the suiciding we now see almost every sortie in AH, and would very probably address the SFP problem. People would have to earn that score/those perks by their own efforts, other than joining the winning side prior to reset and/or going mobhanded on pork-n-auger missuns every sortie.

To answer your questions, bomb damage in a real life scenario would take much longer to repair than to inflict. If you want to vary that truism to suit the game, well I guess it’s your old friend Selective Realism™ at work. In AH, the HQ can be resupplied by goons. I have done it myself. For a successful drop, you get one whole perk point! It’s not my problem if, for you and your fellow fingerbobs, resupply of HQ or defending it against attack is “not fun”, especially now that you have the fingerbob mandated Me163 available for HQ defence. I have had to resupply HQ AND defend it from attack. Why shouldn’t you? “Not fun” is not an adequate response.

I have made suggestions about changes to gameplay in the past. I suggested turning off the mission editor, as clearly that is the tool being used to organise these mindless suicide porkage runs. Can you remember what your comment was when I made that suggestion? In that thread, I said "Seems that Doofus-Dweebius wants nothing more than to smash down the enemy by brute force, and as I have said before: the outcome is about as predictable and interesting as pondering the fate of a wine glass when dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a stone floor." And your considered response was ”I always love it when people speak in absolutist terms about what should or should not be considered fun. :D  You said it in this thread.

And now here you are, presiding over this thread and having the temerity to castigate the suicide fuel porkers for choosing an activity which they consider to be fun. Well, Mr. Toad. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. :)

I think many excellent players of this game are now sick to death of what it has become, and the problems are worst on the children’s maps.

The evidence is here for all to see the folly of a game that has no rules and no structure.

“As even you apparently now realize.” :D

Offline Rutilant

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1352
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2003, 03:36:42 AM »
Good post, beetle.

The response..?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2003, 08:45:29 AM »
So much communication, so little understanding.

I don't lament the fact that people are organized at porking fuel or that they can pork fuel at all.

The point is, that like the addition of the H-bomb, the game is simply unbalanced in the strategic aspect at present.

One person can knock fuel down for an excessive period (hours possibly? depending on the "zone" state and other stuff) in a relatively short period (15-20 minutes?). To restore the fuel a mere 25%.. to bring it from 25% to 50%... then takes the other side an HOUR or more of resupply.

The upshot is that the planes with smaller fuel tanks or poor fuel efficiency (or both) become basically useless. The later war aircraft become the de facto aircraft of choice simply because they have longer range. And for a guy that is tired of seeing P-51's Beet1e, surely you see the implication.  :)

Let them pork fuel. Let the fly what they like. Let the suicide auger. Let them fly the sacred missions, let them win the glorious war. Good on them, I say.

Allow me to repeat that, since you think I've changed my stance:

Let them pork fuel. Let the fly what they like. Let the suicide auger. Let them fly the sacred missions, let them win the glorious war. Good on them, I say.


Just give me a reasonable chance to do what I'd like to do. Fly and fight other aircraft. I'm willing to even fly an (ugh) resupply sortie or two.

But an hour's worth of my playing time just to get fuel up to a usable level for the early planeset (the ones I prefer) is asking a bit much. Don't you agree?  

Ah, you don't agree. You think it's fine that the damage of a 15 minute sortie should take an hour + to repair. Even though this impacts the early war planes that add variety to the MA, you prefer to allow this imbalance to promote the greater use and overabundance of the P-51 type aircraft that you already complain about.

Further, since it's now clear that just about NO ONE will bother to fly 7 goon sorties to build fuel back up 25%, it's obvious that in actual gameplay, dropping fuel to 25% is a condition that exists until the enemy captures that base.  So, a 15-10 minute sortie can easily have an all night effect. Especially when one guy can knock it down again in two passes at a small field by investing 15 -20 minutes of his playing time.

As far as defending against it, well, it's your play time, use it as you like. You want to orbit over a field all night and try to catch them in their dives, go ahead.

I've reached a point where I'll field-hop looking for good fights until none are available. Then if I still have time available it's off to the DA or the CT.

I guess I view the fight-killing strateegery like I do "night". When the sun goes down, I go somewhere else. When the MA is devoid of the opportunity to get in some good fights in the early part of the plane set, I go somewhere else.

I agree with some of what you've said. However, you left out the part where the shift away from "the fight" and the trend towards "deeper strategy" to "win the war" have taken the game.

Yeah, we've had a change in the player base to some extent. But more importantly, we've had a change in why people play, as Batz pointed out very succinctly.

You think heavily structuring gameplay would solve this problem. Well, you'll get to test that hypothesis in the TOD I'd think. That will have maximum structure.

I still don't favor it in the least in the MA. IMO, it will never work, nor would it be desirable. So I remain consistent in my views.

IMO, what needs to be done is to again focust the MA on what an aircombat game is supposed to be about... air combat. The focus on "winning the war" is what brought us to the sorry state of the MA right now.

What good are perk points? I don't use them. Well, I did give away 2000 perks worth of kills the other night while talking on the phone. A field was getting vultched and I kept upping 262's and sitting on the end of the runway. I lost about 10-12 of them while watching 5 guys auger as they tried to race to the kill. :) I really enjoyed watching that. It's the best use for perks I've found so far.

The fight's the thing. Until that becomes the focus of the MA, you're going to have all the behaviors of which you (and a lot of other folks) are so bloody tired.

No rules, no structure will change it as long as "winning the war" is the reason to play. Reward "winning the war" and you'll get more of the same behavior... or worse.

Reward "winning the fight" and you'll get more and better air combat. Tough to do, but there it is.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2003, 09:13:58 AM »
beetle... my K/T is highrer than yours and I land more kills than you do (K/D)   no stat by itself does anything but help the person who's stat it is.. he can use it for an indicator of progress in one area.   several stats taken together show how a person plays.  for instance, K/D and K/H together show how aggressive or timid a person is.     I land or ditch because I am usually over enemyt territory or have been hit.   I don't want to give the kill to someone who didn't earn it or have it count as a kill against me if it wasn't.  K/H  taken with K/D is absolutely a good indicator of behavior and gameplay.   K/H by itself can indicate  how boring a map is... for instance... I would bet everyones K/H allmost halves during pizza map... the text buffer is devoid of kills... nothing but old women and little kids chatting about farts and politics.

toad is telling you that several "strat" features in the MA have made gameplay worse.   One is fuel... I believe that not beiong able to land at an enemy base and not be captured is another... that much less chance people will venture allmost 2 sectors out(and allmost 2 home) if they tripple or more their chance of having a death recorded unless they go in huge hives.   Giving perk points for the reset encouraged steamrollering and milkrunning.      These and others are tiny things that have been changed in the "strat" that have hurt gameplay.
lazs

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2003, 09:18:28 AM »
I've argued before on the ease with which someone can take down the fuel Toad.  I can't argue about people returning over a 15-20 minute period to take it down knowing it will still be down another hour and a half.

I did bring up once before, the idea of tying damage into survival of the attacker when it came to ground objects.  It wasn't met well.  The loss of an aircraft and a pilot in WW2 had a far greater impact than the fact that they didn't destroy the object they were trying to attack.  I remember the Lancasters  that dropped the dam buster... how many were lost and despite the fact that the mission was successfull, the British Generals felt the losses were too excessive.  In AH, dieing while attacking something means you'll get back there to attack the next thing just a little bit sooner.

The damage for attack planes that have been killed say within 5 minutes of destroying a ground object should be undone.  Its gamey and unrealistic, but its nothing compared to crashing replaning and re-bombing.

MiniD

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2003, 09:40:40 AM »
So that's what you remember? Agreeing with me? :D

There's lots of things that "could" be done with regard to "strat". We'll just have to wait and see if anything is done.

I surely don't think MORE strat and MORE structure is the answer though. I think the answer lies in a balance that allows the "war winners" to follow their dream while the "girls just wanna have fun" crowd can grab a bit of "quality time".

The way my life's going, I don't have that much time to put into AH anymore anyway. If I can get in an hour of time to play in the evening and find a few good fights, it's all I can ask for right now.

Sometimes I can do this in the MA; most of the time I can do it in the DA. Every once in a while the CT comes through. I prefer the MA comraderie but not to the point where I'll be bored while listening to the banter.

It's enough for where I'm at right now.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Grave doubts about the success of AH2 TOD
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2003, 12:40:14 PM »
Mr. Toad. OK, so now we’re communicating. Remember, we’re actually on the same side in this – you, me, MiniD, Lazs. But MiniD and I are one side, and you and Lazs are on the other side, all of us firing bullets at the common enemy in the middle – the suicide dweeb. Some of mine and MiniD’s stray bullets are landing in your camp, and some of yours and Lazs’s are landing in ours.

There’s one point you made that I don’t agree with at all. I don’t think that it’s the fuel problem that makes the P51D as overused as it is. Even without this current fuel problem, the P51D would still be in the big three.

Are we all agreed that the scoresheet is a prime motivator for many, especially low skilled dweebs? If so, then a tripling of score and perks for landed kills would encourage landing, at the same time discouraging suiciding. The fight would be rewarded. We’d all be happy. For someone like Lazs who prefers to use k/t as his yardstick, he could auger and get another plane. His perks and score would be less, but I don’t think that would bother him. For the low skill dweebs who feel the need to switch to the winning side just before reset as the fast track to perks, they would now have much greater impetus not to suicide. If they were encouraged to earn their perks, many of these dweebs might even take the trouble to learn some ACM skills, and not rely on the HO. And if we had a properly structured training arena where people could learn these things instead of being told “shaddap” or “try Alt+F4”, maybe some of these unfortunates would not end up as disillusioned HO-merchants and might even become worthy pilots.

So I agree with you: Reward the fight, but do it by rewarding landed kills which would have the benefit of improving gameplay, improving the overall skill level, AND discouraging suicides. But leave the strat! The game is better when the fights are driven by territorial disputes. Well I think so. What guys like MiniD, Muckmaw and myself want out of the game is not mutually exclusive to what you, Lazs and Nopoop want.

Perk points – I use ‘em to buy my Chogs. One of the reasons my Chog k/d is higher than some other planes is because I’m more careful in it. Sometimes they’re 20pp or more. Overall rank: Useful if you want to take control of a CV, and not having some low ranking tard take it away from you.

Resupply: It’s a tough one. Furballers don’t like the fact that it takes many trips to resupply a fuel-porked base. They don’t like their HQ to be porked. But what about the bomber pilots? To get to enemy HQ, they might have to fly 45 minutes, and nowadays their efforts are much more likely to come to nought – because of the introduction of the Me163. How do you think the bomber pilots would feel if their efforts at bombing a strategic target totalling an hour or more can be reversed in 10 minutes by some guy upping a goon with supplies?

Lazs!  You brighten up my days. :D Hehe, but you’re off topic, matey! This thread isn’t about personal stats, and neither is it about gun control! ;)  But as it’s you, I’ll indulge you. I don’t dispute what you said about our respective stats/scores, but your statement is incomplete. You might well have slightly better k/t and k/d, but that was influenced in part by an horrendous 20 minutes this week in which I battled to save a Rook CV.

But your fighter rank is still lower than mine. You are now #215 and I am #177. Also your hit percentage is a little over 7%, whereas mine is nearly 11%. And your fighter points score rank is #582; mine is #84. Interpret this data any way you want. In an unstructured arena, it’s meaningless. What was the point of bringing it up? :confused:

But your punishment for taking the thread off topic will be a face slapping with two wet fish – how about a pair of mullets – a red one and a grey one? Your cat’s will be happy. (LoL – just the word “mullet” cracks me up this week.) You’ll be pinned to the ground, and powerless to resist – Funked will be doing some close range mooning – ie sitting on your chest. Even a strong guy like you won’t be able to break free from the Funked-moon-hold. ;)