Author Topic: First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades  (Read 2270 times)

Offline AKIron

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2003, 10:25:54 PM »
Disaster worse than what they are currently experiencing? Worse than frequent bombings causing constant uncertainty and fear? Sooner or later the breaking point will be reached.
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Offline AKIron

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #91 on: October 06, 2003, 10:34:42 PM »
Put yourself in their shoes for a minute Grun. Imagine that everytime you go out in public you wonder if the stranger next to you is about to kill you and your family and/or friends. This isn't irrational fear I'm describing either but a very real possibility. However, a person can take only so much stress like that before they do become irrational.
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Offline Thrawn

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2003, 10:37:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by icemaw
The muslims doing these acts of murder are animals


Yep, homo sapien, just like you or I.

See as what the topic of this thread is concerned, I though I would post the following article.


"Mideast 'martyrs' often manipulated by masters
 
Ian MacLeod
The Ottawa Citizen

Monday, October 06, 2003

Suicide bombers are often no different from people who kill themselves out of deep personal anguish, according to a new study by one of Canada's leading suicide researchers.

In what is sure to be a controversial finding, Dr. Antoon Leenaars found the central motivation for some Middle East suicide bombers, Palestinians in particular, is not politics, but depression and despair. Terrorist groups often manipulate the emotional misery of such individuals, especially the young, and induce them to sacrifice their lives for the group's political cause.

Suicide bombers "don't differ much from others, except what they're feeling is a loss of freedom. They're depressed about their freedom," says Dr. Leenaars, a Windsor, Ont., psychologist and past-president of the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention.

"There's still anger, there's still unbearable pain, there's still anguish. But their anger is towards the Israelis, as opposed to anger towards Sally or Mary or whatever. These people may not be as different as you and I think."

Dr. Leenaars is an internationally recognized expert on suicide notes and much of his latest research is based on deciphering the background, final messages and suicide notes of bombers. His study also explores forms of "altruistic suicide," including sati, the ancient Hindu custom of a widow immolating herself on her husband's funeral pyre, and the self-immolations of Buddhist monks protesting the Korean and Vietnam wars.

His work is to be published in the January edition of the Archives of Suicide Research, the quarterly journal of the International Academy for Suicide Research. Dr. Leenaars is the journal's editor-in-chief.

While suicide bombers are considered by most people to be terrorists, the sociology of suicide classifies them as altruistic deaths, motivated by a sense of duty to their social group. A classic example is the soldier who unquestioningly accepts a "suicide mission." Another is the political martyr.

Dr. Leenaars examines, among others, the case of Arien Ahmed, a 20-year-old Palestinian business administration student who was to be a suicide bomber. Her case was the focus of a major exposé in The New York Times in 2002 after she gave a jailhouse interview to Times reporter James Bennet.

"She was to be a martyr, what we call an altruistic suicide, although others would claim, a terrorist," Dr. Leenaars writes in his upcoming article. "Yet, she fit no known terrorist pattern. There was no lengthy training, no connection to a dissident group and so on -- she was only shown how to push a button on a bomb. She was, however, to become a suicide bomber because of duty -- her society saw an obligation for people to kill others, the Israelis, by killing themselves."

Palestinian society, he says, is a culture that fosters anguish, despair, hopelessness and helplessness.

"This was true for Ms. Ahmed. Her father, for example, had died when she was six years old. Her mother remarried and abandoned Arien. She was alone.

"Ms. Ahmed, however, made friends, did well in school and lived with her extended family. In The New York Times, her family is reported to have stated that Ms. Ahmed, 'hid a great deal behind her bright smile'."

But the family was unaware of just how deep her anguish ran and of her sudden suicide mission.

Ms. Ahmed had only offered to blow up herself five days before the planned act. On May 22, 2002, she was approached at Bethlehem University, shown a bomb and how to trigger it. She was soon placed in a car, dressed as an Israeli, and sent off with an accomplice.

What was the motivation?

"Not duty, but to avenge -- there was deep aggression -- the death of her fiancé, Jaad Salem," a member of the Tanzim, the militia connected to the violent Palestinian group Al Fatah. After his death, Ms.Ahmed felt she had lost her future. She wanted to die and join Mr. Salem in the afterlife. Al Fatah convinced her she should do that by martyring herself for its cause.

"This reads like a suicide note," says Dr. Leenaars of Ms. Ahmed's circumstances. "She was depressed and forlorn; she believed that the Israeli soldiers had killed her fiancé. (Israeli intelligence agents told the Times he had accidentally blown himself up.) Her pain was deep. Her needs were frustrated. She wanted to attack, to have revenge. These are not atypical markers of most suicides.

"Yet, to her social group, she would become a martyr, a hero. Her death was not to be seen as a suicide, or an act of terrorism, but an act of martyrdom," a notion that Ms. Ahmed told the newspaper she found "stupid."

As she neared her bombing objective in the town of Rishon le Zion, Ms. Ahmed later told Mr. Bennet she remembered a childhood belief, "that nobody has the right to stop anybody's life."

At the last moment, she turned back. Her accomplice carried through, killing himself and two Israelis. Ms. Ahmed is now in an Israeli jail.

Reporter Bennet says she agreed to be interviewed to discourage other Palestinians from suicide attacks, and to gain sympathy for herself. The Israeli Security Agency, he wrote, appeared eager to allow the interview to illustrate how easily militants manipulate susceptible people and send them to kill and die.

© Copyright 2003 The Ottawa Citizen"

Offline GRUNHERZ

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #93 on: October 06, 2003, 11:02:27 PM »
Israel trying to forcefully relocate millions of Palestenians, not to mention the fact you will have to invade Syria and relocate millions of Syrians as you suggest will end up in the death of hundreds of thousands of people.  

Just imagine how the israeli army will have to behave in Syria, llok at all the annoying troubles we are having in Iraq - a country that by most measures actually appreciates our presence there and likes our soldiers.  Now imagine if we all of a sudden our army told millions of Iraqis we would deport them to Iran....

This suggestion of yours to forcefully deport entire populations of millions of people is so callous and ignorant and such an armchair fantasy of one man who has no responsibilty and no accountabilty to actaully carry out such an adventure, its simply staggeringly stupid.

You just imagine how the IDF will be treated at every home in the west bank, gaza and Syria when they knock on the door and demand the family leaves. And you know what tanks, APCs and F16s with laser guided bombs cannot deport people. Some young Israeli kid with an M16 and a helmet will be doing it and doing it hundreds of thousands of times and getting shot at every step in every tight narrow street in the territories.  What will the IDF do if one family barricades itself inbtheir house, blow it up? Kill everyone inside? Well they will have to do it over and over again and then it will become genocide.

NO whoopee HITLER STYLE MILOSEVIC STYLE STALIN STYLE DEPORTATIONS!!!!!!

And you know what I dont really have to imagine very hard what that is like because my family was forced to become refugees when the gentle serb relocation officers decided it would be safer for croatinas to relocate and not face the terrors of being killed.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

You have no clue what you are talking about... Stop talking and start thinking more, please, please just think of the monstrosity you are suggesting...

Offline AKIron

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2003, 11:12:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Israel trying to forcefully relocate millions of Palestenians, not to mention the fact you will have to invade Syria and relocate millions of Syrians as you suggest will end up in the death of hundreds of thousands of people.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

You have no clue what you are talking about... Stop talking and start thinking more, please, please just think of the monstrosity you are suggesting...



Look Grun, stop being obtuse. What I said was conjecture. I'm not in charge of Israeli policy or war making, or anyone elses for that matter. But, do you not see the current monstrosity that is actually being perpetrated by the Palestinians? Please calm yourself, I'll feel guilty if you give yourself an aneurism.
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Offline icemaw

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #95 on: October 06, 2003, 11:29:06 PM »
Sorry Thrawn you can wrap all the psyco babble around it you want to. You will never make me believe that suicide bombers are human like me. They are animals they deserve no pity no reward no tears. They and the animals that lead them deserve death plain and simple. Hopfully as slow and painfull as possible.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2003, 11:57:08 PM »
If somebody came on here supporting the stupid palestenian terror campaign, in conjecture or otherwise, I would argue with them just as I am arguing with you.

Offline _Schadenfreude_

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2003, 12:11:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
~snork~

Those "Pan-Arabs" have tried that crap before. They got their tulips handed to them.

More than once ;)

culero


In Yom Kippur in 1973 the Syrian/Egypt forces were about a week away from Israeli collapse - if the US hadn't massively reinforced Israel with aircraft and more importantly ECM equipment there was a good chance they would have lost the battles on the purple line.

As it was the Egyptian ability to cross the canal and hold ground in the first week won them back both the canal and the Sinai in later peace negotiations.

I don't think the world would have allowed Israeli annihilation in '73 they were still popular then - but with USA intervention they would have lost both the Sinai ( which they did in return for peace) and the Golan - Syria would have taken it and then held for a cease fire.

Offline Thrawn

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2003, 01:48:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by icemaw
Sorry Thrawn you can wrap all the psyco babble around it you want to.


Nah, I'm sorry you don't understand the article.  There was no moral judgement in the article.  It wasn't trying to justify.  It was trying to explain.


Quote
You will never make me believe that suicide bombers are human like me.


And I guess WW2 bomber pilots that targeted civilians aren't human like you either. (thanks -Kats)

Offline Creamo

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2003, 01:58:20 AM »
Suicide bombers aren't trying to stop a world war in progress Thrawn. That's such a pitiful stretch.

Your usually pretty good on the bbs, but that's just retarded.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #100 on: October 07, 2003, 03:14:45 AM »
The creation of Israel was one of the worst historical mistakes of modern time.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2003, 03:31:47 AM »
No doubt a swiss nazi banker like you hates Israel, I mean they might even try to stand up for their citezines - some of whom may even want their family valuables back..

Offline Montezuma

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2003, 03:57:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_

As it was the Egyptian ability to cross the canal and hold ground in the first week won them back both the canal and the Sinai in later peace negotiations.



That was probably the last time an Arab army was able to accomplish anything over a non-Arab opponent, and when it was over they lost it of course.


Most Americans don't know that the #2 country for US aid behind Isreal is Egypt.  At least it was, who knows how much Bush is spreading around now to countries like Poland these days.

Offline SaburoS

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2003, 04:28:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The creation of Israel was one of the worst historical mistakes of modern time.


The holocaust from Nazi Germany showed us why it was necessary to develop a modern Israel. The continued goal of a Greater Israel from the radical right is the mistake though. Too many innocent casualties from both sides from the violence. The long term survival of Israel and the developement of a Palestinian State might be in question given the paths taken, unfortunetly. So much potential, too much hate. Looks like the hate is winning.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline GRUNHERZ

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First overt Israeli military action vs. Syrian territory 2 decades
« Reply #104 on: October 07, 2003, 04:45:08 AM »
That is the basic problem - they just seem to prefer killing each other the past few years over really settling down and talking.

I gotta wonder about Arafat though. Either he is supporting (not opposing) the terror attacks or is completley powerless to infulence the terror groups who are carrying out the attacks. Either way this situation makes him a weak negotiating partner.  It will be intresting where he ends up in this process.