Author Topic: Are you spending your way to disaster?  (Read 2907 times)

Offline Sixpence

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Are you spending your way to disaster?
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2003, 12:56:24 PM »
lol, if he had it his way, there would be no laws, a dictator, and total anarchy.

" People always have a job - even a lone person on an uninhabitad island can work to provide for himself without money, businesses, etc"

Not on manhattan island

"It won't. Good luck to you finding a back yard in manhattan. You seem to lean alot toward socialism,

You are joking, right? "

You stated on an earlier post that the state should provide assistance to families. On one hand you are for state intervention, on the other you are not.

Who pays for the infrastructure?

BTW, pardon my ingnorance, but you explain things in difficult to understand terms, so the only way to get you to say it in laymen's terms is to argue the point.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2003, 01:18:02 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Rude

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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2003, 01:18:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
P.S. It's curious how ignorant people call themsleves "progressives" and others "conservatives" and being obsolete for adhering to the 19th century free-market economic doctrines (elaborated and developed in 20th century) while they are nothing but proponents of the 16th century mercantilist policies. All that while throwing "21st century" around. Some progressives...
 Truly, ignorance is a bliss.

 miko


Common sense prevails in the marketplace Miko....this economic bubble gum you chew in public, has little or no relevance to making a buck.

It's investments, followed by production ending with consumption which drives the economy....the love affair you seem to have with the economic vernacular might serve you well, however, I along with most everyone else I know is too busy making the money while you seem satisfied talking about it.

I'll guess you're age at around 28 and still in school?

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2003, 01:35:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
Someday, not sure when, I'll really do more than skim one of Miko's wordy replies.  Its my new years resolution  :p


Same! LOL! What does he think we are, Rowgue Scholars? :p  Ever heard of the saying "too smart for your own good" Miko? :eek: You have nothing intellectually to prove to anyone but yourself how damn intelligent you are...the rest of us just want short, sharp answers. :p

Offline Badger

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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2003, 01:52:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
....What does he think we are, Rowgue Scholars? ....


Somehow I doubt Miko will ever confuse us with Roads Scholars.... ;)

We're still struggling through stage of learning how to use scissors for cut-n-paste.... :D

I think there's a requirement for original thinking to qualify for the former.......

Regards,
Badger

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2003, 02:05:16 PM »
Sixpence: lol, if he had it his way, there would be no laws, a dictator, and total anarchy.

 You are totally inventing ridiculous meaning and attributing it to my posts. You cannot understand what I am talkng about and you start piling all kinds of wild accuations which not only have no relation to what I said, but actually contradict to each other.

 How can there be a dictator and no laws and total anarchy? How could I be for anarchy and socialism and dictator and a proponent of 19 century free-markets at the same time?

Not on manhattan island

 Oh, yea? Next thing you will climb on top of a mount Everest and complain that you cannot find work there at the salary you deem acceptable.

You stated on an earlier post that the state should provide assistance to families. On one hand you are for state intervention, on the other you are not.

 Nops. Unless you dug up my post from (quite) a few years back, you must be confusing me with someone.

 I recently said that if the state mandates the families to support the children (of which I do not approve), then it must pick up the tab for the support. Is it the one you are referring to?

 I guess if I said that it was evil of the nazis to shoot jews in gettoes and then charge the cost of bullets to their families, you would present it as I said it was OK for nazis to shoot jews?


Rude: It's investments, followed by production ending with consumption which drives the economy.

 Wrong. It's investments properly directed in viable ventures  followed by production ending with consumption which drives the economy. And the error that the Austrian school of economics avoid that every other one makes is treating the economy as some kind of homogenous aggregate. This obviously leads to a fallacy that any investment leads to growth of production and it is necessarily goods.
 Austrian economists starting with Bohm-Bawerk recognised the complex physical and temporal structure of capital and the disruptive effects that manipulated interest rates cause. When the resources are misallocated, the jobs are created temporatily and production seems to increase, but the projects will not be able to complete or will not be profitable and will fold, with unemployment rising again and resources wasted.


Rude: Common sense prevails in the marketplace Miko....this economic bubble gum you chew in public, has little or no relevance to making a buck

 Statement as empty of content as the best of Matrtlet's posts. Do you share Keinsian common sense that hiring people to dig up holes and fil them back in makes all of us prosper? Or that printing more paper money will magically increase the supply of investable resources? Or that preventing pople from accepting a job below certain limit would make them rich?


I'll guess you're age at around 28 and still in school?

 I am close to 40, have been working for 13 years in financial industry in NYC - equities treding, quantitative analysis, etc., M.S. in Electical engneering and M.S. in Computer Science. Top 1% on income, expecting a second child.

 Don't laught on what you do not uinderstand - it only shows you own immaturity.

 Would you care to explain with your "common sense" how lower interest rates affect the flow of investments into capital, specifically the temporal re-allocation?

 How come all the american firms that were working and employing lost of people on top of the last boom suddenly went out of business and laid people off while the consumers are still buying a lot of products from abroad? How come all those people and resources were misdirected from producing goods that people would actually buy into stuff that is now lays unused as dead weight? What made all the entrepreneurs to misdirect money into the wrong investments instead of production with guaranteed market? I have an explanation for that. Do you?

Ripsnort: ...how damn intelligent you are...the rest of us just want short, sharp answers.

 :) There is a very short answer. Any government intervention in free-market economy is bad and would necessarily lead to the results less desirable than the original state of affairs even from the vantage of the proponents of the intervention.

 If you take my word for it, you do not need to read anything else.
 When it comes to proofs, that's another matter entirely - about 3 thousand pages of selected reading would probably cover it.

 BTW. There is a practical reason for my posting this stuff here - besides getting a few people interested enough to undertake serious studies. I could obviously find agreable audience on libertarian/free-market forums but I would rather try my skills on regular people to work out a presentable version of those views.
 My children will soon grow enough to be exposed to the views of such "common sense" ignorant socialists. I am preparing my defences.

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2003, 02:07:11 PM »
"Not on manhattan island

Oh, yea? Next thing you will climb on top of a mount Everest and complain that you cannot find work there at the salary you deem acceptable. "

Nice dodge

"Here is an apt analogy. You are not free if you wear a long leash that is not pulled tight at the moment. You are not free if you willingly go on the slack leash where the master would want you to go. You are not free if you approve of the leash. You are not free if you learned the limits of your leash. You are only free if you wear no leash. "  - Miko

  no laws- no leash, right? welcome to anarchy
« Last Edit: October 14, 2003, 02:14:09 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2003, 02:34:08 PM »
Sixpence:  no laws- no leash, right? welcome to anarchy

 Wrong!

 There is diference betwen the government of Law and the government of people. Why don't you read the Founding Fathers on that subject.

 If you call the state of people being secure in their person and property, protected by government from invasion, violence and fraud and not subject to the whims of "majority" in matters that do not concern violation of other people's persons and property as "anarchy", that it may well be anarchy. But it would be the strangest definition of anarchy I ever heard.

 miko

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2003, 02:38:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
"Here is an apt analogy. You are not free if you wear a long leash that is not pulled tight at the moment. You are not free if you willingly go on the slack leash where the master would want you to go. You are not free if you approve of the leash. You are not free if you learned the limits of your leash. You are only free if you wear no leash. "  - Miko

  no laws- no leash, right? welcome to anarchy


I agree. Laws = leashes.  No laws = no leashes = anarchy.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2003, 02:38:20 PM »
You guys need to relax a little..  
lazs

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2003, 02:44:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Sixpence:  no laws- no leash, right? welcome to anarchy

 Wrong!

 There is diference betwen the government of Law and the government of people. Why don't you read the Founding Fathers on that subject.

 If you call the state of people being secure in their person and property, protected by government from invasion, violence and fraud and not subject to the whims of "majority" in matters that do not concern violation of other people's persons and property as "anarchy", that it may well be anarchy. But it would be the strangest definition of anarchy I ever heard.

 miko


If I understand that right, what you would propose would be a government run by the few, writing laws for the many, but the many not having any say in the laws?  That doesn't sound very democratic to me.

I always thought the government of the people was the basis for the government of the law.  After all, its the people that elect the government officials that pass the laws.  If you don't like the law, you can file a claim in court and have equal representation to demonstrate how you are aggrieved by it.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2003, 02:49:54 PM »
"If I understand that right, what you would propose would be a government run by the few, writing laws for the many, but the many not having any say in the laws? That doesn't sound very democratic to me."

 According to Miko, the American democracy is a bunch of thugs forcing their will upon us.

The country being run by the few....dictator?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2003, 02:51:10 PM »
gofaster: I agree. Laws = leashes.  No laws = no leashes = anarchy.

 Then you are dumb too. How about this.

 Laws = fences. Fences are usually stationary, fixed objects. They are intended to prevent you from violating somebody else's domain and to prevent them from violating yours. You know where they are. You know what to expect. You know which domain is yours and you know where you cannot cross, except maybe by invitation from the other side. There are no surprises and you can plan your life, not being subject to arbitrary decisions of others. Whatever is in your domain - obtained by laboor or exchange - is secure. You are not forced to run into fences.

 Leash is a tether that attaches you to a master that moves around at will and controls you totally. Leash is a movable object, intended to direct you all the time and induce you to go wherever the master goes, jerk you away from things that interest you even if you are withing the usually accepted range. Master of course is not restrained by any means and can act arbitrarily. Leash could be used to keep you close while you are being whipped or to hang you. Leash is oppression.

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2003, 02:56:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
gofaster: I agree. Laws = leashes.  No laws = no leashes = anarchy. Leash is a tether that attaches you to a master that moves around at will and controls you totally. Leash is a movable object, intended to direct you all the time and induce you to go wherever the master goes, jerk you away from things that interest you even if you are withing the usually accepted range. Master of course is not restrained by any means and can act arbitrarily. Leash could be used to keep you close while you are being whipped or to hang you. Leash is oppression.

 miko


So laws equal oppression. So anarchy it is.

Anarchy: 1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

utopian:1 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a utopia; especially : having impossibly ideal conditions especially of social organization
2 : proposing or advocating impractically ideal social and political schemes
3 : impossibly ideal : VISIONARY
4 : believing in, advocating, or having the characteristics of utopian socialism
« Last Edit: October 14, 2003, 03:01:08 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2003, 03:01:20 PM »
Sixpence: "If I understand that right, what you would propose would be a government run by the few, writing laws for the many, but the many not having any say in the laws? That doesn't sound very democratic to me."

  Oh, I am not arguing that our governmenmt is not democratic. Sure it is. I am saying that it is oppressive. What does democracy and freedom from oppression have to do with each other?

According to Miko, the American democracy is a bunch of thugs forcing their will upon us.

 Upon each other.

 If someone gets enough of like-minded people together, theyc an vote on what you can wear, eat or drink, what kinds of sex youc an have and with whom, what you can say and what you can read. How many children you can have and how you shoudl raise them. Who you can trade with. Basically, anything they want to vote on.
 They can certainly decide how much property you should own and how much income you should keep and penalise you for certain lifestyle choices by confiscaing more or less of it.
 They can change rules every day.
 You can register you futile protest or you can join in voting on what you neighbours should be forced to do.

 Quite opposite to what the Founding Fathers intended.

 miko
« Last Edit: October 14, 2003, 03:03:42 PM by miko2d »

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2003, 03:02:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
gofaster: I agree. Laws = leashes.  No laws = no leashes = anarchy.

 ... How about this.

 Laws = fences. Fences are usually stationary, fixed objects. They are intended to prevent you from violating somebody else's domain and to prevent them from violating yours. You know where they are. You know what to expect. You know which domain is yours and you know where you cannot cross, except maybe by invitation from the other side. There are no surprises and you can plan your life, not being subject to arbitrary decisions of others. Whatever is in your domain - obtained by laboor or exchange - is secure. You are not forced to run into fences.

 Leash is a tether that attaches you to a master that moves around at will and controls you totally. Leash is a movable object, intended to direct you all the time and induce you to go wherever the master goes, jerk you away from things that interest you even if you are withing the usually accepted range. Master of course is not restrained by any means and can act arbitrarily. Leash could be used to keep you close while you are being whipped or to hang you. Leash is oppression.

 miko


Actually, you are restricted by fences just as much as you are restricted by leashes.  The difference is that the leash, as you interpret it, is more fluid.  And so are the laws.  To be more accurate,  Federal laws are fences, local laws are leashes.  And they all restrict your freedom.

The only true freedom would be anarchy - freedom from responsibility, freedom from consequences, freedom from direction.