Author Topic: Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela  (Read 1320 times)

Offline 10Bears

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« on: October 15, 2003, 02:56:35 PM »
Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela


The Associated Press

CARACAS, Venezuela - A top U.S. envoy dismissed allegations Tuesday that Washington was helping opposition groups topple Venezuela's leftist president.

Otto Reich, White House special envoy for Latin America, told local Union Radio that "it is simply ridicuilious" to think that U.S. agents are involved in any such effort.

Last week, Venezuelan Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel accused the CIA of working with the opposition to undermine the government.

Facing a possible recall vote that could end his presidency next year, President Hugo Chavez and his allies have recently accused Washington of destabilizing this oil-rich nation and playing a role in a brief 2002 coup.

http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/101503/usn_envoydenies.shtml
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Heh-heh.. Otto Reich has a lot of creditability

Offline Charon

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2003, 04:31:22 PM »
Chavez is a real trip. He's bad news for Venezuela and bad news for a good company in the oil industry, Citgo. He's bent on following Castro's model for success.

About 6 months ago I met with the president of Citgo, former Venezuelan General Oswaldo Contrares (owned by the Venezuelan national oil company PDVSA) to see how things were recovering after the recent strikes. "Just fine, he says..." How about the political stability? "Under control." Three weeks later he was sacked by Chavez in a purge. Had to do a lot of rewriting on that one :)

Here's the article BTW. It covers some of the political factors at work in the country. http://www.petroretail.net/npn/2003/0308/0308cgo.asp

Charon

Offline 10Bears

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2003, 05:50:47 PM »
Good find Charon, interesting article.

Quote
Chavez is a real trip. He's bad news for Venezuela and bad news for a good company in the oil industry, Citgo. He's bent on following Castro's model for success


If Chavez is bad for Venezuela, he should be voted out of office on the next election. Isn’t that what democracy is all about? Either you believe it and promote it or it’s so much rhetoric.

The sad truth is corporate CEO’s really have no use for democracy and will use any means necessary to curtail the will of the people including the use of the CIA to stage coup attempts.

One would hope that President Clark on his first day in office fire the CIA.. they’ve been blowing it quite a bit lately. Can’t even overthrow a Latin American country anymore sheesh.  

But getting back to  Otto (4th) Reich here, do you believe he's telling the truth?

Offline Charon

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2003, 06:48:51 PM »
Quote
If Chavez is bad for Venezuela, he should be voted out of office on the next election. Isn’t that what democracy is all about? Either you believe it and promote it or it’s so much rhetoric.


And he may very well be, if he decides to actually step down when the time comes. Unfortunately, the damage to the Venezuelan economy may be quite significant by the time that happens.

Chavez came to power by promising the uneducated and unemployed a utopia and they had more votes. His social agenda is funded by gutting existing industries for short term gain (and he even manages to do a poor job of this) instead of developing these assets efficiently and adopting a reasonable taxation policy.

It's not just the managers who oppose his policies, but the regular workers -- they can see their future slipping away. If his policies had the promise of creating greater employment or a long-term improvement in the quality of life, that would be one thing. However, they seem more focused on maintaining his power base as long as he can. His choice of international allies (Iraq, Lybia, Cuba) also reflects a lack of interest in future economic success. There were signs that his support base was becoming unhappy with the disorganization and lack of progress shown by his government. Unfortunately, by losing the strike the opposition has lost face and given him a boost in popularity.

Quote
The sad truth is corporate CEO’s really have no use for democracy and will use any means necessary to curtail the will of the people including the use of the CIA to stage coup attempts...

But getting back to Otto (4th) Reich here, do you believe he's telling the truth?


The Venezuelan oil industry, if developed properly, has the potential to greatly benefit the Venezuelan people. But, it relies on a heavy, sour crude that is expensive to process and alternatives can be found. PdVSA has developed a refining and distribution/marketing infrastructure suitable to make this oil profitable on the world market. Chavez wants to gut the company (existing assets and future development) to provide short term handouts and return it to the status of a regional, national oil company. This effort could ultimately lead to Venezuala becoming insignificant in the global oil industry, with very little else to fall back on economically. In fact, it's very similar to the short-sighted policies corporate CEOs use to boost the stock value and their own portfolios at the expense of a company, its employees and customers.

I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA was involved, but just how deeply or directly has not been established. I don't think they would have to play too much of a leading role, since there is no real shortage of opposition even among the leftist parties. I personally disagree with the misuse of the CIA for "nation building" purposes, not only for ethical reasons but because the  neocolonial banna dictator approach has always ended in failure long-term. Iran and Vietnam spring to mind, but there are many others. Ironically, the Venezuelan people might benefit more from a CIA success than from the alternative for a change.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 07:05:03 PM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2003, 06:50:06 PM »
Quote
Good find Charon, interesting article.


Thanks 10Bears. I didn't have to look far -- It's one of mine :)


Charon
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 07:05:31 PM by Charon »

Offline Thrawn

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2003, 03:03:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 10Bears
If Chavez is bad for Venezuela, he should be voted out of office on the next election. Isn’t that what democracy is all about? Either you believe it and promote it or it’s so much rhetoric.


You would probably benefit from talking to an actual Venezuelan about Venezuela's brand of democracy, I know I did.

A Venezuelan-Canadian I work with helpped manage the elector database for the Venezuelan government.  For kicks he looked up his mother's name.  She was listed as valid elector, she had been dead for 14 years.

He has said that he would like nothing better than for the US to invade Venezuela and have a regime change.

Offline crabofix

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2003, 03:37:06 AM »
Thrawn.

I do not doubt for a minute that this would be a good thing for Venuzuela, in a short term.

I can´t help to get anoyed about this "US invade to change regime", though.
The attitude of some on this board is very scary. In one sec. they scream about democrathy and in another sec. they scream about changing regimes with the help of a forign military action.


How can 2 political parties represent the will of a country that has population of 250 million?
This is a question that really puzzles me.

SO, the Soviet had 1 choice, so they only had 50% of your democrathy. But 50% of democrathy, compared to the "land of freedom, the finest democrathy in the world" cant be that bad?


Then I wonder why the UN, EU, US even bother to send observes to see that elections are conducted in a democratic way, when they are cheating that bad and it is not exposed?
Cheating in elections must be a very common thing around the world.
Now, if all would just follow the "Florida" example, there would be the right regimes all over the world.

Offline Thrawn

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2003, 03:47:14 AM »
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Originally posted by crabofix
I can´t help to get anoyed about this "US invade to change regime", though.


I agree.  My friend has become very disinfranchised with Venezuela, it's government and it's people, but at the same time loves it dearly.  He's also very disappointed that the people involved in the coup attempt didn't kill Chavez when they had the chance.  He believes that Chavez's death will be the only thing that will save Venezuela.  And with Chavez building his own private army, but funding the reservists and not the regular forces, it would be very bloody for the civilians to make this happen.  This is his thinking anyway.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2003, 04:28:14 AM »
Wow 10Bears! First we are the bad guys compared to Saddam and now we are the bad guys compared to a south american communist dictator... Why? Why?  

Carbofix the comparison with the Soviet Union is cute - I suppose it does not matter to you that in the soviet union it was probably illegal to have any other parties other than the communist party..   Plus there are litreally countless political parties in the USA, it just happends that over the course of history that the poulation has gravitated towards two major ones.  I guess you dont recall the elecotoral sucess of Ross Perot's party in 1992, he earned 20% of the vote.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2003, 06:50:50 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline crabofix

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2003, 04:28:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
I agree.  My friend has become very disinfranchised with Venezuela, it's government and it's people, but at the same time loves it dearly.  He's also very disappointed that the people involved in the coup attempt didn't kill Chavez when they had the chance.  He believes that Chavez's death will be the only thing that will save Venezuela.  And with Chavez building his own private army, but funding the reservists and not the regular forces, it would be very bloody for the civilians to make this happen.  This is his thinking anyway.


I dont know the truth of what is going on in Venezuela, I never been there and I have no connection to anyone that have lived there. All I know is what the news are reporting and theres diffrent things being said about the situation in this country.

Now I have to  admit that I am biased a lot, mostly taking the "anti-US" side. I can´t really help this. I have my thoughts about how the "big politics" works and I cant really blame the US, interfearing in Politics in other countries that are supplying the most vital thing for this country:OIL

The most annoying thing is to hear people defending it, using words like "democrathy" and "threat to our country".
Yes, the bare thought of US beeing without Oilsupply is a threat.
But call it "Oilwars" not "War on terrorism" or "war for democrathy".

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2003, 04:34:59 AM »
"Oilwars" Ahah...  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2003, 04:39:36 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2003, 04:36:15 AM »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2003, 04:37:47 AM »

Offline crabofix

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2003, 05:04:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Oilwars" Ahah...  


Ok, I got the Point.
So it was not Al Quida that did it, it was Venezuela?

Sorry, for trying to make you look stupid, GRUN.

Honestly, The 9/11 is getting a bit Old.

Nearly all the Hijackers on that attack came from Saudi-Arabia, yet the US goverment choose to "punish" Afganistan and Iraq.
But I get the Picture, they picked a fight they hardly could´nt loose.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Envoy denies allegations about CIA in Venezuela
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2003, 05:09:01 AM »
But call it "Oilwars" not "War on terrorism"


Yea try to weazel out of it.... It's really funny this urge in you to marginalize the outrage, magnitude and impact of 911. As you allready said you are Anti-US - so I understand why it is difficult for you to sympathise with our point of view because of your prejudice.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2003, 05:13:26 AM by GRUNHERZ »