Author Topic: Focke Wulf 190 weights (Read 1653 times)

Krusty · « **on:** January 26, 2007, 12:04:52 PM »

Mustaine and I were having a slight discussion in another thread about 190s and the effectiveness of the A-8 vs the A-5, and as an aside I went offline and compiled some weight numbers. This is secondary to the other thread so I'm posting it here.

It's quite enlightening.

First, let me start by saying I'll address 2 common myths at the end of this.

Second, this is how I typed it up. I used the E6B to note weights, and then below the weights I used windows calculator to get the proper numbers for each item. I've separated each plane type by a row of asterisks, and then at the end I went in and compared the total plane weight of each plane to the ones before it (with the A-8/F-8 I subtracted the weight of gas from the aux tank, because it adds 180 lbs to the total). By taking the full weight, firing off the ammo for a gun, I can tell how much ammo is in the default guns. Then taking a second weapons option I can fire off the the gun, get the weight of the ammo, then subtract the weight of the default ammo (getting just the gun option ammo weight) then I can use the weight difference between full default and full guns package to get the weight of the package, which minus the ammo gives me the weight of the gun installation itself (see how I did this?). It's all basic addition and subtraction, with a bit of dividing for unit weights.

*************************************************
190A-5 2 guns 100% (139gal): 8584 lbs
190A-5 2 guns 0%: 7752 lbs
190A-5 2 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 8341 lbs
190A-5 2 guns (noMGAmmo) 100%: 8467 lbs

190A-5 4 guns 100% (139gal): 8780 lbs
190A-5 4 guns 0%: 7948lbs
190A-5 4 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 8465lbs

190A-5 2 guns DT (218gal): 9124 lbs
190A-5 2 guns DT dry (139gal): 8650 lbs
190A-5 2 guns DT dropped (rack on): 8584 lbs

139 gal = 832 lbs
1 gal = 5.985 lbs
79 gal DT = 474 lbs
1800 7mm rounds = 117 lbs
500 20mm rounds = 243 lbs
120 20mm rounds = 72 lbs
1x 7mm round = 0.065 lbs
1x 20mm round = 0.486 lbs
1x 20mm (MG/FF) = 0.6 lbs
2x MG/FF plus ammo = 196 lbs
each MG/FF gun without ammo = 62 lbs
Total DT weight = 540 lbs
Empty DT weight = 66 lbs
ETC rack weight = 0 lbs?
**************************************************
190A-8 2 guns 100% (169gal): 9360 lbs
190A-8 2 guns noaux% (139gal): 9178 lbs
190A-8 2 guns 0%: 8346 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (noMGAmmo) 100%: 9189 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9118 lbs

190A-8 4 guns 100% (169gal): 9682 lbs
190A-8 4 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9304 lbs

190A-8 30mm guns 100% (169gal): 9891 lbs
190A-8 30mm guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9506 lbs

190A-8 2 guns DT (248gal): 9900 lbs
190A-8 2 guns DT dry (169gal): 9426 lbs
190A-8 2 guns DT dropped (rack on): 9360 lbs

169 gal = 1,014 lbs
1 gal = 6 lbs
30 gal aux tank = 180 lbs
79 gal DT = 474 lbs
950 13mm rounds = 171 lbs
500 20mm rounds = 242 lbs
280 20mm rounds = 136 lbs
110 30mm rounds = 143 lbs
1x 13mm round = 0.18 lbs
1x 20mm round = .485/.486 lbs (in/out)
1x 30mm round = 1.3 lbs
2x MG151/20 plus 280 rounds = 322 lbs
each MG151/20 outboard = 93 lbs
2x 30mm plus 110 rounds = 531 lbs
each 30mm = 194 lbs
More weight than A-5 (not counting aux)= 596 lbs
Total DT weight = 540 lbs
Empty DT weight = 66 lbs
ETC rack weight = 0 lbs?
**************************************************
190F-8 100% (169gal): 9849 lbs
190F-8 noaux% (139gal): 9667 lbs
190F-8 0%: 8835 lbs
190F-8 (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9607 lbs
190F-8 (noMGAmmo) 100%: 9678 lbs

190F-8 DT (248gal): 10389 lbs
190F-8 DT dry (169gal): 9915 lbs
190F-8 DT dropped (rack on): 9849 lbs

Ammo weights the same as A-8
DT weights same as A-8

More weight than A-5 (not counting aux)= 1,085 lbs
More weight than A-8 = 489 lbs
**************************************************
190D-9 100% (139gal): 9415 lbs
190D-9 0%: 8583 lbs
190D-9 (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9172 lbs
190D-9 (noMGAmmo) 100%: 9244 lbs

190D-9 DT (218gal): 9955 lbs
190D-9 DT dry (139gal): 9481 lbs
190D-9 DT dropped (rack on): 9415 lbs

Ammo weights the same as A-8
DT weights same as A-8

More weight than A-5 = 831 lbs
More weight than A-8 (not counting aux)= 237 lbs
More weight than F-8 (not counting aux)= -252 lbs (F-8 weighs more)
**************************************************

NOTE: I'm about to post a bug in the bugs forum about the ETC racks having no weight. I'm rather annoyed at this. I'll tell you why below

MYTHS:

1) It is better to burn the front tank first in the A-8.
Wrong. The aux tank (even when dry) pushes the center of gravity back dangerously, to the point of destabilizing the aircraft at low speeds (this is one major cause of the sudden snap-stalls). By draining the front tank, you are removing the counterbalance and pushing the center of gravity even further past the danger point. It only feels like it's flying better because after the front tank is gone you've lost 378 lbs of weight. The plane is lighter. It isn't helping the CoG at all. What you need to do is to drain the rear tank first, because that alleviates some of the rear weight and pushes the CoG forward. You're still losing about the same amount of weight after the aft tank is gone (roughly 50%/50% each tank), but now the CoG is pushed forward and slightly balanced.

2) [edit: 190A-8 specific] You need to take a drop tank even if you drop it on the runway, because you need the rack to balance the aux tank. This is what LW pilots did historically. In fact it was mandatory to fly with the rack even if you didn't take a DT. Why? Because that damn aux tank was a detriment to flight safety. The rack was moved forward to return the CoG to a safe zone, because the weight acted like a balance on a scale. The myth is that it balances out the plane in Aces High. I heard this from a die-hard LW fan some time ago and I am very very very displeased to learn it's been BS this entire time. The weight numbers above show that the rack, while it may add drag, adds no weight. Thus it cannot balance out the CoG. Basically the A-8 drivers are boned, CoG-wise. I will be posting a bug report about the no-weight-racks after I'm done with this.

For those that like to take the F-8 into dogfights (and I've noticed a LOT of them -- I try to let 'em know it's not a good dogfighter, and is meant for attack, but nobody listens) please note the weights. Even without the guns options it is grossly overweight compared to the A-8. It's the heaviest 190 in the game, surpassing the Dora by several hundred pounds. The only benefit is that it has an armored oil cooler ring, meaning you'll rarely lose oil (but you'll probably get your tail shot off with the way it handles).

So please enjoy this compilation if you fly 190s. Note the weight of the MG/FF guns themselves, compared to the weight of the MG151/20s on the A-8. I was shocked at how heavy the 30mm guns were. Far heavier than I'd thought. Also the ammo weights might be interesting for folks that fire off the "BB guns" before sorties. You're not saving hardly any weight at all. Firing off half your 20mm saves more weight than firing off ALL your 7mm in the A-5. Firing off the 13mms doesn't seem worth it, as they weigh almost nothing and have the same punch as 50cals. Now, if you want to fire off ALL your 7mms and half your 20mms you might save a little weight, but we're talking 300 lbs on a 8500lb machine. A drop tank weighs more than that.

Just because it's rather shocking, and because I now folks skim, here's the A-8 outboard gun option weights.

2x MG151/20 plus 280 rounds = 322 lbs
each MG151/20 outboard = 93 lbs

2x 30mm plus 110 rounds = 531 lbs
each 30mm = 194 lbs

Mustaine · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2007, 12:49:17 PM »

nice set of data

in that other thread of the F4u stalls going on, I'd like to see some of those same tests applied to the 190's in AH. specifically the A8 and the D9 personally. a few times in the last few days a squadmate experienced the high speed accelerated stall in the 190D and flopped over. I personally get "low-n-slow" with the dora I'd more than anyone I know, and am rather used the the stall characteristics, but are they correct?

the A8 in my recent flying has a nasty buffet in almost any turn below 250 MPH I find it hard to even pull a flat turn to tunnel vision (pulling 5+G's) getting anywhere near that point the stall really goes into work and you have to counter the flop instead of fight.

Krusty · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2007, 12:51:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mustaine
nice set of data

in that other thread of the F4u stalls going on, I'd like to see some of those same tests applied to the 190's in AH.

That would be sweet. I fear we'd have to use the bribe link to get it done, though. I'm strapped for cash, how about you?

Mustaine · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2007, 01:12:33 PM »

I'm unemployed borrowing a neighbors wireless internet... I can maybe come up with some change from the back seat of the car for a bribe

1K3 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2007, 02:25:52 PM »

Krusty. HTC does not count weight for center and wing racks. It's not only the 190s.

Krusty · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2007, 02:41:18 PM »

IK3, they count the drag for these racks, and for wing-mounted racks that are integral they include the weight (P51s, P47s, P38/F4u pylons, etc, etc).

If you read the bug reports post I made, the 190A-8 actually NEEDS the weight of the ETC rack.

edit: my point is, if they do all that they should have added the weight!

Bodhi · « **Reply #6 on:** January 26, 2007, 02:58:28 PM »

Krusty, for avgas weight, you should use an accepted number of 6.02/lb a US Gallon. That is it's weight @ 15 degrees Celcius.

A good reminder though, is that Fuel Weight decreases the warmer it gets.

Pyro · « **Reply #7 on:** January 26, 2007, 03:31:51 PM »

I must have not been able to find a weight for that and then forgot about it. I can fix that. 500 lbs sound about right?

Krusty · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2007, 03:37:45 PM »

Sure, as long as the pilot weighs - 440 lbs

I don't know what it weighs, but as long as whatever-it-weighs moves the CoG forward like it should, I won't care.

Krusty · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2007, 03:38:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bodhi
Krusty, for avgas weight, you should use an accepted number of 6.02/lb a US Gallon. That is it's weight @ 15 degrees Celcius.

A good reminder though, is that Fuel Weight decreases the warmer it gets.

I think the E6B numbers truncate or round. Not having proper decimals I'm left with whole numbers. For the 190A-5 the fuel is lighter per gallon, you see, because of the rounding/truncating errors. To me, it's as close as I can get for the moment.

Pyro · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2007, 03:43:25 PM »

Gas in AH weighs 6 lbs per gallon even.

1K3 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2007, 04:29:00 PM »

damn where's crumpp when we need him...

tikky · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2007, 09:56:18 PM »

190 is fine as is

typical luftwhiners

Wes14 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2007, 10:47:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by tikky
190 is fine as is

typical luftwhiners

omfg thats funny:rofl

Krusty · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2007, 11:59:19 PM »

Strange.... Tikky is calling me a luftwhiner for .... simply listing the weights as they are in the game? For debunking a couple of myths folks say about flying it?

I think tikky is a tard. Henceforth his posts go unread from me.