M410 Armament?

[Krusty]

I did some more online research today. Seems that the 410A had the DB 603A. The DB 603G was never ready so they 410Bs that were produced had the DB 603A or DB 603AA engine.

"The Me 410B-series was largely the same as the A-series, but replaced the 7.92 mm MG 17 with 13 mm MG 131. The originally planned 1,900 hp (1.397 kW) DB 603G engine was cancelled in early 1944 so all Me 410Bs used DB 603A or DB 603AA engines."

Meaning the same engine as the 410A.

http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Messerschmitt_Me_410

Sources cited as:
Caldwell, Donald & Muller, Richard (2007). The Luftwaffe over Germany: Defense of the Reich. London: Greenhill Books. ISBN 978-1-85367-712-0
Hess, William N. (1994). B-17 Flying Fortress: Combat and Development History. St. Paul, Minnesota: Motorbook International. ISBN 0-87938-881-1
Stocker, Werner & Petrick, Peter (2007). Messerschmitt Me 210 / Me 410 Hornisse/ Hornet. Midland Publishing. ISBN 1-85780-271-3
Scutts, J. (1994). Mustang Aces of the Eighth Air Force. Oxford: Osprey Publishing. ISBN 1-85532-447-4


Though, I cannot attest to any accuracy for any of them.

[Scherf]

Cheers, thanks for that.

There's a couple other statements above I'm a bit leery of, namely BK5 and twin 30mm armament, and BK5 410s used vs tanks. Never heard of either of those things before.

[morfiend]

Scherf, I have that loadout listed too,but the 30mm are the Mk108's not Mk103's{Planes of the Luft.}

 However like you I've never heard of them used against tanks either,perhaps the poster was mistaken the 410 for the 129.

 to answer the 603 G question,it appears the 603A and 603AA's are correct,however some were ASM engines and quite possible some AASM engines,the AASM I'd have to look into further but MB lists those as "in production".


   

[Scherf]

Thanks morf - were those 30mms in place of the "regular" 20mms, or were they in the weapons bay along with the BK5, with the 20mms still in place?

[Krusty]

I would think they were some sort of ventral gunpod, like on the He219 or something?

I'm about to post a suggested weapons list, but it's long. Just wanted to add I agree about the "used against tanks" comment -- I think that's a very misleading bastardization of comments about the BK5's origins (it originally being a "tank" gun). There is some pure speculation that the Mk103s were used against soviet tanks because the Hs129 used that gun as well, but I think that's a totally confused statement because the Hs used a Mk101.

Overall I think that the idea is hogwash.

[Krusty]

Okay... Not to dismiss any of the fine contributions so far, but as far as its inclusion into AH the stuff posted so far is hard to read through. It's redundant and includes stuff like prototype torpedoes and photo recon that have no real place in the AH model.

I'm proposing a "What SHOULD it have" thread from this point on. I've put a lot of thought into this, and I think it gives us the best combination of capabilities and the least cluttered hangar screen as we squint horribly to read the fonts on what we want on our loadout. Keep in mind, you add the 10 million different experimental options and you'll never see them in the hangar!!

What I broke it down as (Skip down to the bold to go straight to it):

4 categories:

1) Main loadout

2) bomb bay

3) wings

4) Centerline


Scroll down below for my list, but a little of my logic WHY before that:

1) Since the only main difference between the A and B is the 7mm vs 13mm MGs (seeing they both used the same engines), I would suggest the "main loadout" have both options. No reason, you say? Well in scenarios with timelines or setups with specific timing issues, it might come into play. Or if people want more peashooters to help "walk" rounds to a target and tap the cannons, etc.

2) For the bomb bay, you had guns on "trays" and bombs on "platters" and they would simply be mounted on the bomb bay. That's right, the bombs weren't on racks, they were on a platter that was then inserted. I'm hoping HTC can do this so that you get to choose bombs or guns but not both (as was historic). Naturally it could carry some bombs, but I think we all like the guns options so we need a good choice there as well. I don't think it should have a BK5 simply because the gun was totally rubbish and didn't work. Historically it was produced, but effectively it was worse than simply loading the plane with 20mm and 30mm cannons (every source so far backs this up). In-game it would be so overpowering as to be a laugh. There were MANY options, however, the common themes follow a certain pattern. I've listed what, IMO, are the more common, more regular, more proven loadouts that we'd actually use in the game.
Example of 2x20mm "tray": http://i5.tinypic.com/499vgcw.jpg
Example of the 4x20mm "tray" load: http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/5691/me410b245wz0.jpg
Example of 2x Mk103 (diagonal muzzles on 103): http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/MK%20103/MK%20103/Bilder/Me%20410%20B-2%20U%201/001.jpg

3) The 410 could carry the same WGRs as the 110, but could also carry a newer setup specific to the 410.
2x each wing: http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3503/me410b2u23om.jpg
3x each wing: http://i18.tinypic.com/491m0cj.jpg
I don't know how MANY used this, but I've seen at least a few pictures. However, unlike the 110 I don't think it could carry bombs. It carried these on the centerline. I don't know about drop tanks either, as it apparently had a 1500mi range (might not have been needed?).

4) The belly would be capable of a pod similar to the 110G (but rounded more): http://i10.tinypic.com/2ak9tgg.jpg
It could also carry 4x 50kg bombs on 4 small racks.
2 examples:
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW5/Me410-2s.jpg
http://luftwaffefighters.co.uk/410/me410-4.jpg
Naturally the fighter versions would not carry these to hit bombers, but when tasked with bombing something it was clearly one of the options. This does not get in the way of the bomb bay, you'll note, so I've separated it from that weapons list. Because they are mutually exclusive to the mission at hand, I think we can pull "double duty" and have both options on the same selectable plane in the hangar.

NOTE: All of these include 2x 13mm MG131 "tail guns" with 500 rpg each.

1)  MAIN
2x 7.9mm MG17 with 1000 rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg
2x 13mm MG131 with 600 rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg

2)  BOMB BAY
empty
8x50kg
2x250kg
2x500kg
1x1000kg
2x 20mm MG151/20 with 400 rounds (total, I think?)
4x 20mm MG151/20 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mk108 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mx103 with 100 rpg

3) WINGS
4x WGr.21
6x WGr.21

4) CENTERLINE
4x 50kg (on shackles that disappear when bombs not loaded)
1x 2x20mm MG151/20 gunpod with 200 rpg (based on other gunpod and bf110G gunpod)



I think this gives us maximum coverage from Schnellbomber to Zerstorer. It would be just as useful as a mossie or a p-38 in regards to ground attack AND heavy fighter. You might commonly see the gunpod with the 2x20mm tray, but that doesn't stop you from loading it with the 2x30mm or the 4x20mm trays. You suffer for it with weight and drag, but it lets you customize what you want. And yes, there are accounts of 8x20mm (2 main, 4 tray, 2 gunpod) and witnesses to its use in combat. Yes the missions did carry 2x 30mm and 2x 20mm gunpods sometimes (at least from what I've read they did on night fighter missions) so all these combinations were used.

It has taken quite a while to compile and type this up. I hope people find it helpful, or at least inspiring.



EDIT: P.S. I just realized the text on the 3-rocket setup says 15mm, not 21mm... Anybody know if this was done for 21mm also?

[Krusty]

Ran across this... Very interesting. I pulled the ammo counts from this, so that's why I didn't have the missing values in the previous post.

It starts really getting interesting on Page 6....

Page1
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Page4
Page5
Page6
Page7
Page8
Page9
Page10
Page11
Page12
Page13
Page14

[Wmaker]

There is some pure speculation that the Mk103s were used against soviet tanks because the Hs129 used that gun as well, but I think that's a totally confused statement because the Hs used a Mk101.

The Hs129 used both MK101 and MK103.

[Krusty]

Ah, that might explain that specific link, then.

Thoughts on the proposed selection (2 posts up)?

[Wmaker]

Naturally the fighter versions would not carry these to hit bombers, but when tasked with bombing something it was clearly one of the options. This does not get in the way of the bomb bay, you'll note, so I've separated it from that weapons list. Because they are mutually exclusive to the mission at hand, I think we can pull "double duty" and have both options on the same selectable plane in the hangar.

NOTE: All of these include 2x 13mm MG131 "tail guns" with 500 rpg each.

1)  MAIN
2x 7.9mm MG17 with 1000 rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg
2x 13mm MG131 with ??? rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg

2)  BOMB BAY
empty
4x50kg
2x250kg
2x500kg
1x1000kg
2x 20mm MG151/20 with 400 rounds (total, I think?)
4x 20mm MG151/20 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mk108 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mx103 with 100 rpg

3) WINGS
4x WGr.21
6x WGr.21

4) CENTERLINE
4x 50kg (on shackles that disappear when bombs not loaded)
1x 2x20mm MG151/20 gunpod with ??? rpg

Overall I think those options look reasonable. It is true that you can make combinations out of those that most probabaly weren't used together but I don't either think it really matters. It's just a the nature of the Aces High's hangar loadout-system. There are combinations that can be loaded to the P-47 that I understand weren't used operatinally. I do disagree with the exclusion of the BK5. It was produced in big enough numbers and wouldn't really be the only weapon option in AH that does better than it did historically (NS-37 for the IL-2 is a good example of this). I think pyro said once that he didn't wan't to add large calible cannons to things like the Mosquito because it would be overpowering against bombers. So it could be that Pyro doesn't want to include it either, don't know. IMO it really isn't a problem considering the limitation of the gun and the performance limitations of the Me410 as a platform.

I've read the same thing about the DB603Gs and therefore also think that A and B models can be modelled using different loadouts.

Regarding rest of the list, couple observations:

- 2xSC500s (general puropose, the ones AH is modelling) didn't fit in the bay with doors fully closed, 2xSD500s did.

- Don't remember seeing a thing about the SC1000 in the bay, any pics, links, sources?

- 8 SC50s could be loaded to the bay.

Pic:

[321BAR]

You're always so serious Sir.........   

epic image here

[Wmaker]

2x 13mm MG131 with ??? rpg

the nose mounted MG131s of the B-model had 600rpg.

2x 20mm MG151/20 with 400 rounds (total, I think?)

These had 230rpg, so 460 rounds total according to a Mushroom book. That primary source you posted indeed says 400 rounds.

[Lusche]

- Don't remember seeing a thing about the SC1000 in the bay, any pics, links, sources?

See loadout options on "Page 6" posted by Krusty. Only the (smaller by dimensions) PC 1000 is listed.

[Wmaker]

See loadout options on "Page 6" posted by Krusty. Only the (smaller by dimensions) PC 1000 is listed.

Thanks! I wonder how much was it used.

Seen the SC1000 in person, it's one big bomb.

SC1000:


PC1000:


The PC1000 indeed does look quite a bit slimmer.


1- SC 1800,
2- PC 1400 "Fritz",
3- SD 1000 "Esau",
4- C 1000 "Hermann",
5- SC 1000,
6- AB 500,
7- BM 1000 G - Mine,
8- SC 2000,
9- PC 500RS "Pauline",
10- AB 250,

[Krusty]

About those 8x 100kg... I thought I was reading it wrong. I thought they meant 8, counting the 4 external. I subtracted those 4 because I was dividing internal/external loads.

I'm very impressed they fit like that!!

So, modify my post to say 8x 100kg on the bomb bay!


EDIT: It's also possible there are different loadouts for the bomb-bay insert guns. Like the 109 hub gun, they might have loaded more or less depending on available room or weight.


P.S. I did go back and edit the post just to change that bomb load and fill in a couple of ammo listings.