Please..An honest post..

[hazed-]

Ok ive noticed over the last year many posts concerning our Radar levels and icon ranges being too much and I thought id try to open an honest dicussion on why we are either in favour or against any changes. Please try to keep to reasons why you are EITHER for or against changes to radar coverage/acurracy and icon range.

Id like to start by telling you about being a gunner for a B17 (death5 pilot <S>   ) and being attacked by a pair of Me262s.
well as they approached we saw them from d6.0 all the way to almost 100ft (the one that got that far).Well i'd guess i started hitting the first one from about 1.1 down to 500 before his wing was torn off(both engines oil too) then the second one attacked and i plastered him too, damaging his engine and lighting up his fuselage as he streaked past.Later I got the kill so both lost 200 perks for trying to down a b17 attacking their base!.That kinda sucks because the attacks were fast and together and at accute angles and basically i think because i had plenty of time to recognise they were jets and then to judge closing speed for 5 seconds or so(?) before they were anywhere near the 30mm shot range.
If anyone here has played in the CT you may have noticed the Icon range is 3.0 rather than 6.0.I have found surprise attacks MUCH easier to pull off and much easier to fall prey to.As the game is now I find that when you have an attacker above you you get a perfect visual clue(icon) as to WHEN they begin their attack.It is extremely rare to catch someone once they know you are nearby.
So we have an arena where unless peoples SA is flooded with enemy you can pretty much avoid all the fights.You have your icon earlwarning radar to help you out.Take it away like we tried and the game can get unenjoyable but reduce it to 3.0 like the CT (or perhaps 4 for MA?)and you get a much more intense atmosphere and you can be easily caught out if you dont pay attention to your 6 oclock.Much more oppertunity for those sneaky ideas to form  
Id really like to try a reduced icon range in MA for a month. (3 or 4 k?)

As to Radar I think with the arenas so full these days I really dont feel there is a need anylonger for such an accurate radar.It used to be you couldnt find a fight for 20 minutes while you searched for that 1 guy showing a red bar in a 25 mile square, but now?, who CANT find a fight for gods sake? lol
Basically i think they radar really doesnt NEED to be so accurate with the numbers in MA and the scale of the map.Double its size and maybe there will be a need for it again but as it stands I usually see almost the entire front crowded with enemy all looking at their map dar closing in on any fight you can clearly see with red and green dots swirling around, pick out a solitary red one or red blob and fly directly to it.You can even adjust real-time your course until you line up with it.It all far too arcadey with so many on.Used to be you knew they were in the square and you would have a fairly hard time finding them as they hid from you.Now you cant run too far without meeting more and more cons and so Mission sorties become wild gambles that 9 times out of 10 end in failure.I think radar reduction may help to keep some areas of the map 'reletively' clear so those that dont mind a longer quieter route can have their fun too.
I used to ask for the below 500ft to be turned off but it seems unworkable when most bases are 1000ft up anyway.
Perhaps a less defined red bar would help? maybe just a small red bar until aircraft exceed a certain amount, then a larger bar and thats it.And perhaps the ability to knock out a localised area of all radar including  bar type.
Imagine a tactical strike on a chain of radar(1 every 10 miles) knocks out local bar and dot radar.You send fighters to distaract fighters whilst you push a large force into the enemies now blind front.It could recover quickly but at least this would mean you could do SOME sneaky large missions.As it is as soon as you launch an enormous RED blob pretty much garentees failure doesnt it?.
I would like to see less accuracy or less definition of radar BAR

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[StSanta]

He's a Grünherzjäger  

I agree completely on all points Hazed.

Reducing icon range will add much immersion to the game, as well as excitement.

Those arguing for keeping it the way it is are really relying on it too much: crutch of sorts. It'll still be there, and all the arguments about "2d monitor with limited FOV" are really a non issue: it's still there, although at a more realistic (well, perhaps) range. I doubt fighter pilots could ID all planes at d6.0, much less judge closure rate at pinpoint accuracy at this range.

Of course, this will mean that a lot of veterans will die while we get used to it, but it's fair for both newbies and veterans.

It's certainly worth a weeks worth of experimenting, IMHO.

The CT has failed for a variety of reasons, but blaiming it on icon settings alone would be wrong: in fact, that some still go to the CT I attribute in part to that.

[AKDejaVu]

I liked the reduced icon range in the CT, but I don't really think it would help much with the situation you've described.

A bomber is always going to have a clear view of anyone even remotely trying to get near.  It doesn't matter what range you put it at.

Most of my sneak attacks have been from below and behind on virtually any plane I've hit.  Icons had little to do with it.

Anyways... I'm all for the reduced icon range... I just don't seeing it making the kind of difference you are describing.

AKDejaVu

[K West]

Reason?   Easy answer on my part.  I left a game that several years ago stopped striving to be anything more than just that. It had actually fallen, willfully, down into the arcade end of the "game" spectrum.

 I, whom many there had called an ultra realist (amongst other names   ), gravitated to AH and subscribed to what I thought or hoped would be a sim. Yes, still a game as anything done on a computer is apt to be, but one that leaned towards the simulation end of that "game" spectrum. I personally wanted (And still do which is why I remain) to experience aircombat using damned good simulations of WWII era equipment.  I think HTC have done a fine job with it so far, as far as the aircraft and many of AH's features, but the actual environment in which to use these tools is very gamey. Right now the modern AH radar (and the digital icons) water down the immersion immensely. For me anyway.

 My efforts, via particating in these discussions, is to help promote more realism. Not less.

 Westy

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]

[Revvin]

I appreciate the MA is there for everyone, those who like realism and those that like a few helpers and also newbies but is no dar under 500ft such a problem? Aces High is about all sorts of combat flying, the furball, the bombers and strat, field capture, tense dogfights but right now it limits alot of this in favour of just finding a furball. Flying NOE should be another valid option but with all altitudes radar it is not. We have one of the finest low level bombers in the game now in the form of the Mosquito and yet its most successful role is pointless.

With radar being so accurate at all other altitudes I fail to see the rationale in having such long icon distance, I like the 3.0 icon range suggestion.

[Raubvogel]

Reducing it to 3 or 4k would be cool.

[hazed-]

AKDejavu: My point was you are more likely to surprise a gunner at 500 mph+ if you only appear at 3.0k as a definate enemy.I as a B17 gunner could look in a 360 degree view at all threats within 6.0k, no aircraft , even the jets can surprise you with its high closing speed which im sure even you AKdeja must admit was a big factor in fighter to bomber combat.The faster the attack the harder to track.What i did as a gunner for the fortress is easily judge which is a fast closing threat and which isnt thus my SA wasnt going to be overloaded much.The reason i used the 2 me262 as an example was merely to stress the cost to those players for trying to 'do the right thing' and defend their base.I was glad i killed 2 me262s sure , but i did feel i had an easy time judging their speed and approach.Being in AH for longer than a few months will grant you a very competant judgement of where to lead shoot, its not really that difficult is it? left a bit shoot huge stream, adjust shoot another huge stream, hell, its a game of pong tennis.

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[AKDejaVu]

Ah.. so you've narrowed it down to being benificial for a 500 mph aproach?  That kinda narrows down just how many aircraft it would aid at over 25k just a tad bit.

The one thing it does right now is to give more of an advantage to the plane that already has the advantage... the higher plane or the plane behind you.  I don't know that that's necessary.  If there were any way to determine what if a plane was heading towards you or away between 3k and 6k, then its pretty cut and dry.  I don't know that its that clear.

Anyways... I did say I was all for it.  I just happen to think you picked one very specific example to prove your point.  I maintain that example is way too specific.

AKDejaVu

[hazed-]

Originally posted by hazed-:
Ok ive noticed over the last year many posts concerning our Radar levels and icon ranges being too much and I thought id try to open an honest dicussion on why we are either in favour or against any changes. Please try to keep to reasons why you are EITHER for or against changes to radar coverage/acurracy and icon range.

jesus AKD cant you read? stop being devils advocate for everyone elses reasons and state your own.
Not that you are for or against so much as  YOUR reasons, not your reasons why my reasons dont hold water eh? sheesh every time ! an arguement.

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[Furious]

Sorry, but i will have to disagree on the icon issue.

In the MA there are no regulations on what types of aircraft or countries aircraft anyone may fly.  So seeing a colored dot gives you no indication as to which side any con belongs to.  

6k icon range equates to 3.4 miles.  At that distance, in real life, I could tell the difference between Axis and Allied fighters.  I would know which were bad guys and which were good by the aircraft types.  That luxury is not afforded to us in the MA.

The reduced icon range works well in the CT because friendly icon range is increased.

See the following thread for my thoughts on dar:
 http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=001917


F.

[hazed-]

edited out

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[R4M]

Originally posted by Furious:
Sorry, but i will have to disagree on the icon issue.

In the MA there are no regulations on what types of aircraft or countries aircraft anyone may fly.  So seeing a colored dot gives you no indication as to which side any con belongs to.  

6k icon range equates to 3.4 miles.  At that distance, in real life, I could tell the difference between Axis and Allied fighters.  I would know which were bad guys and which were good by the aircraft types.  That luxury is not afforded to us in the MA.

The reduced icon range works well in the CT because friendly icon range is increased.

See the following thread for my thoughts on dar:
 http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=001917


F.

Easy. 6K to 3K, show nation and range.

3K to 1K show plane ID and range

0 to 1K show only plane ID.

[Ripsnort]

Okay, I hate to say it, but we need two MAIN arenas, one that has no base capture and relaxed realism for the Laz types that can't fly anyway, and all the newbies that he likes to shoot down.

Then, the real Main arena for the rest of us that enjoy realism.

Don't call it the CT arean, just Main RR and Main "For real men" arenas.

[hazed-]

good suggestion Rip now BACK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD  

[38isPorked]

I agree.

I would prefer to have no enemy icons at all, but the insta-whino of arcade gameplay advocates makes this a hopeless wish.

How about this:

When con is d3.0 to d6.0  a GREY icon saying "CONTACT". It wont say the RANGE or anything, just the name CONTACT.

When the CONTACT is d3.0 or less, THEN you get the plane type and the laser-range-finder.

CT fights are awesome because the short icon range makes you REALLY keep track of what's around you. None of the MA nonsense of split-second snap around views looking for red billboards.

The same thing for bombers. The buff guns are UNHOLY because of their range and increased hit power (or 8-guns converging at exact point, whatever it is that makes them kill in 1-2 pings), but also the icons scream the location of enemy fighters SETTING UP an attack run. When I fly the 262, I very rarely try to attack a b17 from above... because if I do attack it, i'll be going at 600mph and not be able to break the attack if the buff gunner starts shooting when im at d500 or so. I dive below it when im d4.0 and try and shoot it from the belly. If the gunner starts firing, then i'll be at a comfy 400'ish speed in which I can weave (not to mention the ball turret being harder to aim in).

Many times though, the imperial death star sees my icon from looong away and instantly gives me his 6 or starts turning. If the icons were short, chances are the me262 would NOT have attacked it because it wouldnt have seen it so easily. That the b17 wouldve had a much harder time defending itself against the 262, yes..but thats true to life, buff gunners barely had 1-2 seconds to fire on the jets before it zoomed past.