Author Topic: The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003  (Read 8873 times)

Offline Dago

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2003, 08:43:58 AM »
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Sorry but having a gun doesn't me feel more free. Living without the fear of someone shooting at me does.


We have to deal with the realities of today, and in our nation, guns are here, and will never be gone.  If I could live in a society without violence, guns or weapons, I would in a heartbeat.  But that society doesnt exist, dont kid yourself.  I don't care what country you live in, guns exist, though maybe in smaller numbers.

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You pretend the outcome would have been different ?


It might have been for 6 million Jews, and about as many Chinese.

Read the book "The Rape of Nan King" lately?


dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline CyranoAH

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2003, 08:48:15 AM »
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Originally posted by Dago
I don't care what country you live in, guns exist, though maybe in smaller numbers.
 


There are also venomous spiders and snakes, and I don't carry the antidote with me.

As I said, it's perfectly ok to carry guns in a gun society, just don't pretend we need them here.

Daniel

Offline beet1e

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2003, 08:51:25 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo
When will you learn a bit about my country before posting ?
Lazs has a Claude Monet picture in his living room. Seriously!

Offline straffo

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2003, 08:54:40 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
I have looked at the history of both spain and france and if not having guns is the reason for it then I am glad we have guns in America.
lazs

In what occurence ?
I can't figure how having gun would have helped us in history.

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Originally posted by Dago


It might have been for 6 million Jews, and about as many Chinese.

Read the book "The Rape of Nan King" lately?


dago


Just picking but 1937 is not WWII (I'm not sure as it's a question of definition it won't change anything to the mass rape in Nankin)

I don't think unorganised armed individuals can be able to resist an army.

Offline straffo

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2003, 08:55:20 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
Lazs has a Claude Monet picture in his living room. Seriously!


he got more money than I so :)

Offline miko2d

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2003, 09:27:53 AM »
midnight Target: Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
                                                                                                                                        Homicide                  Suicide         unintentional

USA                     4.08 (1999)             6.08 (1999)      0.42 (1999)

Canada                 0.54 (1999)             2.65 (1997)      0.15 (1997)

Switzerland           0.50 (1999)             5.78 (1998)      -


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Sensational media reports of suburban school shootings give the impression that Main Street, USA is seething with potential violence. Yet Mike A. Males, a researcher for the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice at the University of California, Santa Cruz, has calculated that the murder rate among white American teenagers in 1995 (that is, the rate at which white youth, ages twelve to seventeen, were killed) was "virtually identical" to that of Canadian youth. By contrast, the murder rate among non-white youth in the United States was eight times higher than among Canadian youth in 1998.

Gun control advocates frequently point to Canada as a model of strict firearms regulation. Yet, even with our looser laws, white American teenagers are hardly more inclined to engage in gun violence than Canadian youth. Writing in the leftwing journal In These Times, Males points out that, in California, "where white households are the most likely to harbor guns… the gun death rate among white teens (three per 100,000) is as low as Sweden’s or Canada’s."

A similar phenomenon can be observed nationwide. Males notes that the proportion of youth murders committed with guns in Canada is much smaller than that in the United States. Yet, when Canadian youth are compared specifically with white American teenagers, the difference narrows considerably. "The U.S. white-teen [gun] murder rate is pretty close to Canada’s[/i]," notes Males. "Non-white youth are a different story: 180 murders, 147 by guns in 1998, a rate five and eight times higher than for California white or Canadian youth."


 There are reasons why some states have higher murder rates. More permissive gun ownership laws are not necessarily the cause of that affliction.

 miko

Offline Dago

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2003, 09:51:30 AM »
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I don't think unorganised armed individuals can be able to resist an army.


Well, there was the American Revolution.  How do you think that started?

I am starting to wonder if you live in an isolate little bubble?  Do you choose to never read world news?  Do you never hear of military or police attacking villages and the mass murder that results?  It happens, still does, and will for a long time into the future.  We don't expect it will happen in our civilized countries, but it is still going on.  Of course, who in 1940 would have suspected that a forward progressive nation like Germany would decided to practice genocide and would kill 6 millions Jews in the next 5 years?

Yes, there are many many cases where armed unorganized citizens have opposed an army.  Happening right now in Iraq by the way.   I don't think it is a stretch to wonder if there have been incidents that didn't occur for concern about armed civilian response.

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline straffo

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2003, 09:57:06 AM »
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Originally posted by Dago
Well, there was the American Revolution.  How do you think that started?


Dunno,I've not started reading the book Toad pointed to me about American revolution.



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I am starting to wonder if you live in an isolate little bubble?  Do you choose to never read world news?  Do you never hear of military or police attacking villages and the mass murder that results?  It happens, still does, and will for a long time into the future.  We don't expect it will happen in our civilized countries, but it is still going on.  Of course, who in 1940 would have suspected that a forward progressive nation like Germany would decided to practice genocide and would kill 6 millions Jews in the next 5 years?


Yes I've heard of that, in middle east ...
Does it work for the Palestinian ?

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Yes, there are many many cases where armed unorganized citizens have opposed an army.  Happening right now in Iraq by the way.   I don't think it is a stretch to wonder if there have been incidents that didn't occur for concern about armed civilian response.

dago


And what was the outcome ?
Let speak of varsovie for exemple (both the ghetto and the uprising)

Offline Ripsnort

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2003, 10:01:45 AM »
Haven't we covered this thread before? :D

And MT, there are more deaths in Gun control states...because Gun Control means "hitting your target" or in your case "hitting your Tahgut" ;)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2003, 10:03:56 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline beet1e

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2003, 10:09:05 AM »
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Originally posted by Dago
I am starting to wonder if you live in an isolate little bubble?  Do you choose to never read world news?  Do you never hear of military or police attacking villages and the mass murder that results?  It happens, still does, and will for a long time into the future.  We don't expect it will happen in our civilized countries, but it is still going on.  Of course, who in 1940 would have suspected that a forward progressive nation like Germany would decided to practice genocide and would kill 6 millions Jews in the next 5 years?
I think straffo understands this perfectly, Dago. It happened in France. On 10 June 1944, by which time the Germans must have known they were going to lose WW2 following events four days earlier, the town of Oradour-sur-Glane was the target of a brutal attack conducted by an SS Panzer Division. Can you imagine such an attack being repelled by French farmers with shotguns or maybe the occasional handgun?

Read all about it at http://www.oradour.info
This part is horrific: http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter2.htm#BM13_30_Saturday_10_June_1944

Yes, I think straffo knows all he needs to know about this.

Offline miko2d

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2003, 10:12:15 AM »
straffo: I don't think unorganised armed individuals can be able to resist an army.

 Read about the Napoleon's troubles with Spain.

 A place like US or Switzerland are impossibly to occupy.

 Just imagine if the Iraqis were as well armed as the US citizens and as proficient - millions of high-power sniper rifles, 12.5mm  (.50  caliber) scoped rifles, all kinds of battle rifles, rangefinders, radio equipment, body armor, ghillie suits, night-vision devices, ets.

 Granted, we do not have RPGs here - at least that I know of - but I would take a .50 cal or even .300 Weatherby magnum or .338 with a guy who can hit a plate at 900 meters against an RPG any time.

 Even the best army like the one that US currently has would have been blown to smithereens if it tried to occupy a country like US against the wishes of the population.

 miko

Offline Animal

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2003, 10:20:47 AM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The point is.... there are fewer gun related deaths when gun controls exist.


What about Canada? They got PLENTY of guns and very few gun related deaths.

Puerto Rico on the other hand, where gun regulations are extremely tight, worse than California (fear of revolution in the early century), many more people die from gunshots than Canada.  And its a smaller country.

I dont think its about gun regulations...

Offline Pongo

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2003, 10:43:35 AM »
From the paper in canada today
"TORONTO -- A child watched his father die this weekend after he was shot by an apparent stray bullet fired into a car a street away.

"Call 911," was the last thing Derek Wah Yan, 40, said to his nine-year-old son just before midnight Saturday, as he collapsed and died from a chest wound. The two were watching television before the boy was to have been tucked into his bed in the family's townhouse.

The boy called 911, but his father was later pronounced dead at hospital.

Toronto detectives say they believe the bullet that killed the man was fired a block south of the victim's home. The slug is believed to have travelled between townhouses before entering the home.

The large-calibre bullet left a hole in the aluminum siding under the window, passed through drywall, a speaker and then into the man's chest before it stopped, embedded in a door.

In an unrelated incident, a 57-year-old woman was found dead in her apartment bedroom on Willowridge Road.

Police said a man phoned 911 just before 7 a.m. on Sunday, directing officers to Theresa Efimba's body. As a result of an investigation, the caller was arrested and charged with first degree murder.

Josy Balla-Mekongo, 28, of Toronto is scheduled to appear in court Monday.

"
I think anywhere that mr Balla-Mekongo lived he would find a gun and use it.

Offline GrimCO

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2003, 10:44:41 AM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The point is.... there are fewer gun related deaths when gun controls exist.


Ah, the warping of statistics always amuses me.  :lol

Offline miko2d

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2003, 10:49:28 AM »
He is just confusing correlation with causality. Of course there is no "point" - at least no obvious one.

 miko