Author Topic: The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003 (Read 8287 times)

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #60 on:** November 04, 2003, 11:17:03 AM »

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Originally posted by CyranoAH
As I said, it's perfectly ok to carry guns in a gun society, just don't pretend we need them here.

You're the one who brought Spain into the conversation, sir.
I think it's perfectly OK for Spaniards to not carry guns, just don't pretend to tell us Yanks how much or how little we should value the safety of our family and property.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #61 on:** November 04, 2003, 11:20:03 AM »

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Originally posted by FUNKED1
You're the one who brought Spain into the conversation, sir.
I think it's perfectly OK for Spaniards to not carry guns, just don't pretend to tell us Yanks how much or how little we should value the safety of our family and property.

Wonder if they have Conceal and Carry Home-made bomb laws in Spain?

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #62 on:** November 04, 2003, 11:22:37 AM »

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Originally posted by Pongo
I think anywhere that mr Balla-Mekongo lived he would find a gun and use it.

Yep. And the person who killed Mr. Yan was clearly in violation of gun control laws forbidding discharge within city limits.

rabbidrabbit · « **Reply #63 on:** November 04, 2003, 11:22:43 AM »

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Originally posted by miko2d
midnight Target: Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -

There are reasons why some states have higher murder rates. More permissive gun ownership laws are not necessarily the cause of that affliction.

miko

Many don't understand that the US is very diverse. The facts are that there is very little gun crime in most areas and only a few pockets of US society account for the vast majority of drug/gun crime. Virtually none of those guns are aquired legaly and are used to support variouos criminal actions. AS Miko said, gun crime among white America is on par with any other modern society.

straffo · « **Reply #64 on:** November 04, 2003, 11:40:13 AM »

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Originally posted by miko2d
straffo: I don't think unorganised armed individuals can be able to resist an army.

Read about the Napoleon's troubles with Spain.

A place like US or Switzerland are impossibly to occupy.

Well the Spain exemple is not a very good exemple if I remember right Napoléon was a bit busy far east of Spain ...
How many troops were comitted to spain compared to Russia ?

Concerning US and Switzerland it's purely rethorical : who knows ? ( and for Switzerland who would be stupid to attack hiw own bank ?

)

I do think the current statu-quo is right : the US live in a gun civilisation ,I don't and won't start any kind of flawed evangelism in one or the other direction.

@beetle : I've a bit too much knowledge of Oradour but this BBS is not the place to discuss such a subject I loose my temper pretty fast when speaking of Oradour.

Dago · « **Reply #65 on:** November 04, 2003, 11:50:15 AM »

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I think straffo understands this perfectly, Dago. It happened in France. On 10 June 1944, by which time the Germans must have known they were going to lose WW2 following events four days earlier, the town of Oradour-sur-Glane was the target of a brutal attack conducted by an SS Panzer Division. Can you imagine such an attack being repelled by French farmers with shotguns or maybe the occasional handgun?

There was the French Resistance, who unlike so many of the rolll over and give up French actually did some damage to the Nazis.

When an armed population fights a guerilla campaign, they tie up a large number of occupying troops who are then not able to advance in their goals, and it also makes a long term occupation a lot less appealing.

Too bad that is the only instance you came up with, it wasn't a very good one.

dago

miko2d · « **Reply #66 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:13:38 PM »

straffo: Well the Spain exemple is not a very good exemple if I remember right Napoléon was a bit busy far east of Spain ...
How many troops were comitted to spain compared to Russia?

It is an accepted military wisdom that you need 10 to 1 ratio in numbers to overcome the guerillas.

If Napoleon brought more troops to Spain and kept them in the same garrisons, they would have been ineffective outside of small local areas.
If he spread them around Spain at the same density, he would have just exposed them to more guerillas that would have popped up wherever french set up a camp.

On top of that he would have had to supply the much greater number of troops via the same logistical channels. In fact, they would have harder time living off the land and the supply situation would have worsened disproportionately.
Napoleon crossed the Russian border with over 600,000 troops. He came to Moscow with about 120,000 - without having any major battles. The rest were left along the way to secure the supply line in a hostile country.

Napoleon did not fail in Spain because of Russia. Or at least no more than he failed in Russia because of Spain. He was good in battles and campaigns. Holding what he gained proved to be another matter altogether.

miko

CyranoAH · « **Reply #67 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:43:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by FUNKED1
You're the one who brought Spain into the conversation, sir.
I think it's perfectly OK for Spaniards to not carry guns, just don't pretend to tell us Yanks how much or how little we should value the safety of our family and property.

I didn't tell you about your safety, I told you about mine here.

As I said, I don't have any kind of problem with the gun legislation in the US the same as I don't have any kind of problem with the gun legislation here.

All I'm saying is that I don't feel any less safe not carrying a weapon here. I couldn't say the same if I were in the states.

Daniel

beet1e · « **Reply #68 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:54:53 PM »

Dago, yes there was the Resistance. That was quite different from Oradour, where everything that moved was killed. And I would not have rated the chances of the French Resistance against a Panzer Division.

MrBlack, the only thing that's funny about that "official magazine of the french military" is that the captions are not in French, but in English. I guess people like you don't realise that France has its own language.

IN

I hear Skuzzy's footsteps...

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #69 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:59:37 PM »

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Originally posted by CyranoAH
I didn't tell you about your safety, I told you about mine here.

As I said, I don't have any kind of problem with the gun legislation in the US the same as I don't have any kind of problem with the gun legislation here.

All I'm saying is that I don't feel any less safe not carrying a weapon here. I couldn't say the same if I were in the states.

Daniel

Understood.

miko2d · « **Reply #70 on:** November 04, 2003, 01:00:34 PM »

CyranoAH: I don't have any kind of problem with the gun legislation here.

Which means you vote for it. In a demcoraticountry a vote is a tool that you have to affect other people's lives through the coercive power of the state - backed by armed violence.

If you use your power to deny the other people the right of choice regarding protecting themselves, you are an oppressor, pure and simple. It does not matter that you are willing to be a serf at the same time - some people may choose not to live according to your choices.

Damn right we have a problem with you infringing on the liberties of your countrymen. Just like you would hopefully have a problem if we kept slavery in US - even if that would have been our legislation.

Nobody makes anyone have a gun here (well, there are a couple of municipalities where such laws are on the books but they are not enforced). It's the matter of denying a law-abiding citizen rights by governmental decree that is the problem.

miko

beet1e · « **Reply #71 on:** November 04, 2003, 01:11:28 PM »

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Originally posted by CyranoAH
All I'm saying is that I don't feel any less safe not carrying a weapon here. I couldn't say the same if I were in the states.

Daniel

Daniel, I don't know if you've ever been to the US; I'm guessing you haven't. I was there last month, and once again I didn't feel any less safe for not having a gun. The first three days were spent at Milpitas,CA - seemed safe enough. We went to San Francisco, then to Dixon to see Lazs, then down to Monterey, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, San Diego. OK, we did not pass through south central LA/the Watts District! But in OK areas, we were OK. I think about it like a plane flight: Bad things can happen, and many people are afraid to fly, especially after 911.2001. But I just get on with life. The likelihood of somone pointing a gun at me is about the same as dying in a plane crash. Neither has happened yet!

CyranoAH · « **Reply #72 on:** November 04, 2003, 01:23:15 PM »

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Originally posted by beet1e
Daniel, I don't know if you've ever been to the US; I'm guessing you haven't. I was there last month, and once again I didn't feel any less safe for not having a gun. The first three days were spent at Milpitas,CA - seemed safe enough. We went to San Francisco, then to Dixon to see Lazs, then down to Monterey, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, San Diego. OK, we did not pass through south central LA/the Watts District! But in OK areas, we were OK. I think about it like a plane flight: Bad things can happen, and many people are afraid to fly, especially after 911.2001. But I just get on with life. The likelihood of somone pointing a gun at me is about the same as dying in a plane crash. Neither has happened yet!

Actually I have been several times to the states: Wisconsin, New York, Florida, California, Nevada, and Maryland.
Nothing happened to me either, but the first time I went to LA, a couple we met said (confirmed by the driver) that a guy pointed a gun at them because the driver yelled at him for not hitting the gas with the green light.

Also, in Maryland, there was a SUV with music real loud blocking the exit to the local mall and when I asked the friend who was driving why didn't he honk, he said it was to avoid trouble... "you never know".

Same as with everything... gun owners can be very responsible and wise... or not.

Daniel

mrblack · « **Reply #73 on:** November 04, 2003, 01:30:55 PM »

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Originally posted by CyranoAH
.

Also, in Maryland, there was a SUV with music real loud blocking the exit to the local mall and when I asked the friend who was driving why didn't he honk, he said it was to avoid trouble... "you never know".

Daniel

Sad to say you are right there.
It is a shame people cannot behaive in public.
but you did the right thing.
better safe than sorry i think.

beet1e · « **Reply #74 on:** November 04, 2003, 01:35:46 PM »

Daniel - excellent! Have you got an FAA Airman's permit yet? The US is a good country for private flying!