Pvt Lynch Raped!!!

[Charon]

The real story from that incident continues to go mainly uncovered -- the high percentage of jammed weapons, lack of basic CTT training and lack of solid leadership and soldier skills when it counted. It's not the soldiers fault, it is the fault of their senior commanders and command policy.

- It's telling that Pvt. Miller hadn't shot a weapon in about a year before the ambush. You're in a combat support unit granted, but obviously you are operating in a hostile envoronment and no range time before deployment? No opportunity to zero a weapon or knock the rust off markmanship? Anybody's who has been in the Army or Marines please tell me that this is not an outrage.

- The M2 .50 jammed. I wonder if there was range time to set headspace and timing? A reliable weapon once it's adjusted.

- Aside from NBC, how solid were these soldiers on CTT? How many could perfrom immediate action automatically?

- Who was riding their bellybutton to make sure the weapons were clean, dustcovers closed, barrel end capped and ready for action? Was that a priority?

- Who taught the immediate leadeship NCOs and Officers in the convoy (hell the troops of course too) how to react to an ambush? What was their security posture? How much had they trained for such events?

Here a take on our current "Two Armies of One" coddled support soldiers atmosphere. March of the Porcelain Soldiers

It does heroic soldiers who did the best with what they had to work with (training wise) no favor to ignore what appears to be serious lapses in focus. This wasn't a victory, but it does represent a chance to promote change.

Charon

[miko2d]

Scootter: It was not long ago on this very board I read all the  posts about how it never happened, she was hurt in the crash, and how it was untrue that she was ever mistreated.

 Right. Nobody saw her mistreated while she was unconcious and the soldiers that were concious have not reported being raped or having their bones broken. Also, her gunshot wounds and stab wounds described accurately on this very BB failed to materialise.

 I am not sure why disbelieving government and media-spread lies about them would constitute lack of respect to the individuals involved? She did not have to be tortured, shot and stabbed in order to have my respect.

Will I now again read post after post about how she was no hero? (news flash I think they all are).

 That's kind of disrespectfull of the people who perform acts of bravery while concious.


Gunslinger: ...another soldier in that convoy who was the only one to return fire to the enemy out of the entire group
mrblack: That would be PFC Miller.

 That just shows how little you bullsh#tters care about those soldiers. You would just spout nonsense as long as you do not have to lift a finger to show a real respect to those people - by at least learning about their existance.

The Real Hero Behind The 'Bravery' Of Private Jessica

"The military tell us that everyone who was in her unit was a hero," Mrs Walters told The Telegraph. "In fact they have singled out Jessica Lynch as the hero, and they are not giving the recognition to my son that he deserves.
 
"The fighter that they thought was Jessica Lynch was Donald. When he was found he had two stab wounds in the abdomen, and he'd been shot once in the right leg and twice in the back. And he'd emptied his rounds of ammunition. Just like they said Jessica had done at first."

Sgt Walters, a 33-year-old military cook from Oregon, blond and slim but not a photogenic female warrior, had been serving with the ill-fated 507th Maintenance Unit, in which Jessica Lynch was a supply clerk.

"There is some information to suggest that a US soldier, that could have been Walters, fought his way south of Highway 16 towards a canal and was killed in action."

They had backtracked only a few minutes when gunshots rang out. In the confusion, King missed the turn back on to Route 7/8. The convoy began turning around again, but the larger vehicles had to travel farther down the road to find a spot wide enough to turn. One 5-ton tractor-trailer gave out. According to the Army report, one of the soldiers in the vehicle was picked up, but the other, Sgt. Donald Walters, may have been left behind and was apparently the first member of the company killed.

 Walters got the same Bronze Star medal PFC Lynch got.
 The guy was abandoned and tried to fight his way out of ambush. But what do we care - he is as good a hero as any one who just showed up for the war.

 miko

[Scootter]

Originally posted by miko2d
That's kind of disrespectfull of the people who perform acts of bravery while concious.

Well she probably would have been conscious if she stayed home and made welfare babies. But she VOLUNTEERED to be in the service and when called to go in a combat zone she went. No wimping out no medical excesses no getting pregnant just a supply clerk somehow sent to a combat zone with little combat training.

Don't patronize me I understand full well that there are different levels of heroes, what is your level?

I loved how everyone was so against her for playing a hero, like she ever did anything to bring it on. The hero status was thrust upon her and she has deflected it at every turn, lets get pissed off at her because she is awarded a medal. For you to attach any disrespect in my post to our service man and woman shows you are not as smart as you think and shows you know nothing about me.  

I had other crap written here but thought twice and removed it...

[miko2d]

Scootter: Don't patronize me I understand full well that there are different levels of heroes, what is your level?

 I served combat, let's leave it at that.

I loved how everyone was so against her for playing a hero,

 Surely not everyone. I certainly never blamed her for anything - because she never said anything. I blamed the military for lying about her imaginary feats. In fact when she started talking, she said exactly the same thing - blamed the military for lying about her.

For you to attach any disrespect in my post to our service man and woman shows you are not as smart as you think and shows you know nothing about me.

 You said what you said - "they are all heroes". By trying not to discriminate, you discriminate against those who accomplished more.
  Trying to present my disagreement with you (about your disrespect to real heroes) as if I disrespect Lynch is a lie.
 I respect here for what she really did - enlisting. I readily believe that if her gun was clean and her vehicle did not crash so bad, she would perform well. I do not have to admire her imaginary heroics invented by media in order to respect her.

 miko

[kappa]

I just think it sucks it took a WHOLE 4 months to get the movie for TV out.. Damn slackers.. I mean 4 months!  Cant we get something fresh to watch on TV?

k
AoM

[GtoRA2]

I am not surprised she was raped.

She is a hero like the rest of the service people there.

Though, I do not think this is a huge deal. It is something women in the military have to expect. If you are a women and become a POW you are going to get raped.

I have no problem with women in the military as long as they understand the risks. As for them in combat? As long as they can pass the same exact tests then I have no problem with it. But the Army and Marine Corp already have lower fitness standards for women.( I think)

[Spooky]

Originally posted by NUKE
You must be French

from Yahoo news :

 Lynch told Sawyer she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that her gun jammed during the chaos. "I'm not about to take credit for something I didn't do," she said.


"I did not shoot, not a round, nothing. ... I went down praying to my knees. And that's the last I remember."

why,she must be French then...

Nuke, I have more respect for this poor helpless girl than for you : she (literally!) put her bellybutton on the line.

you are just hiding behind your keyboard making stale anti-French remarks...

btw :  Even  the US congress had  to end their silly anti-France propaganda, everybody knows it was a smokescreen, a diversion tactic.
Time for you to get with the program.



PS : OWNED

[mrblack]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Mr. Black, you seem almost happy to be the one reporting this....

Almost disturbing in a way.

You sir are SICK:(

[Gunslinger]

Miko you must be dillusional or somthing.....OR...you just dont read GOOD!

if you actually read my post I never once blasted at jessica lynch.  I said the same things you did just not in as much detail.  I could cut and paste a bunch of quotes like everyone else but it would only waste my time.  

Most of my posts reffered to PFC miller....who is STILL a PFC (or at least was a few months ago) being the only one out of the group that was captured that actually faught back

Charon said it best when he said these soldiers were very poorly trained and there NCOs and Officers need to have there bellybutton handed to them (my words really not his)

lastly my posts all had one outlet at wich they lashed out at....THE MEDIA.  they are the ones that hopped on this like an OJ trial.  I think jessica lynch is taking all of this rather well.  Even she thinks this was WAY over hyped and is mad at all the miss reporting that went on.

Miko actually read the posts or STFU

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
But the Army and Marine Corp already have lower fitness standards for women.( I think)

this is true at least for the Corps.  When I got out the only fitness standard that was the exact same thing were the crunches.  100 in two min for max score.

Men do chin ups (20 for max)
woman have a "flexed arm hang" (70 seconds hanging from a bar with locked elbows) kinda hard for men to do actually

Men have to run 3 miles in 18 min for max score
woman have to run it in 21 minutes

[Charon]

Here's an expert opinion on what might have been behind the performance failures during the engagement.

Guest Column: Army Doctrine Doomed the 507th

By David L. Arnold

As a former officer in the U.S. Army’s Ordnance Corps, I followed reports of the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Co. in Iraq with more than casual interest and a real sorrow. Up until now I’ve refrained from comment on the ambush, figuring that my experience is a bit dated.

But after reading the Army investigative report and some recent comments about the 507th’s experience, including the adequacy of preparation and training, and some comments that I perceive as perhaps unfair slams on them, I want to throw in my two cents worth.

I submit that what happened to the 507th Maintenance Co. at An Nasiriyah was not simply the result what any individual soldier did or did not do on the field that day. Rather, I believe the tragedy was the end result of a reality of Army doctrine and culture that had been apparent to those of us in Combat Service Support many years prior to the ambush of the 507th on March 23, 2003.  

SFTT reader Mike Rooney, in his posted response to Col. David Hackworth’s column on the ambush incident (“That Bloody Road to Baghdad,” DefenseWatch, Apr. 22, 2003), includes two very telling paragraphs:

“Another noticeable point – was the large number of WEAPON FAILURES. QUESTION: Did this small company unit, its individual soldiers, plus assigned leaders – fail to ensure and perform “preventive maintenance” daily on their weapons? From pages 6 and 7 [of the “U.S. Army Official Report on 507th Maintenance Co.: An Nasiriyah, Iraq”] one gets the impression – that this unit DID DEVOTE a SUPER HUMAN EFFORT to its recovery tasks. But, did these recovery tasks consume so much time – that weapons “preventive maintenance” was ignored, or even simply not performed?

“On page 2 [of the Army report] it states – “There were 33 U.S. soldiers in the 18-vehicle convoy.” Math-wise – 18 vehicles divided into 33 people – equals about 1.8 soldiers per vehicle. Since most of these were large truck vehicles requiring full driver attention – that would reasonably appear to leave only about ONE effective “full-time” fighting gun per MOVING vehicle. In addition, on page 3 it states – “However, all pyrotechnics, hand grenades, and AT-4 anti-tank weapons were consolidated and secured. This leads to the QUESTION: Were these soldiers EVEN ALLOWED to have these additional items at hand and ready for their OWN DEFENSE?

Rooney is on the right track: Over the years, starting in the 1970s, Army combat doctrine has increasingly shifted the responsibility for rear-area protection from line combat units to the rear area units. Line combat units, previously available in rear-area security and “reserve,” disappeared at the same time Army commanders began to recognize the emergence of “fully-enveloping threat environments” on the modern battlefield. At the same time, the strength and capabilities of Combat Service Support units began to decline in the face of an increasing mission and a "tooth to tail" imbalance.

The result is the personnel math problem that Rooney cites in his response to the report. When deployed in their proper mission in support of a fast-moving force, even highly-trained service support units will find themselves undermanned, too widely dispersed, and completely outgunned in event of an enemy assault or an unplanned meeting engagement.

An immediate reaction response to the ambush – laying down a base of fire and charging the ambush – are realistic scenarios for troops operating from APCs or assigned to a well-prepared Ranger force. As the ill-fated soldiers of the 507th found out that day against the Iraqi gunmen, it can be a damn sight harder for a support trooper perched in the shotgun seat of a 5-ton wrecker that is sandwiched between two fuel tankers in a convoy traveling without flank security assets.

This illustrates the wider issue confronting Army support troops everywhere: Providing effective 24-7 security for a widely-dispersed logistics operation with a TOE that is barely adequate for garrison support duties at home – and totally inadequate to run support 24-7 on a moving battlefield while simultaneously maintaining effective combat security, defense, listening posts, patrols and all the other tasks of area and route security – is impossible in today’s Army.

Rooney also raises questions about the 507th’s PM and, by implication, their training and readiness. To explain my take on this, I need to indulge in a small anecdote. In the mid-1970s, V Corps and the 8th Infantry Division performed the first division-level exercise of an assault crossing the Rhine River in many years. It was a big deal training event. I was Division Materiel Officer at the time. After the bridges were in place at one particular crossing I was involved with, the lead elements went across. The first element to cross the bridge were some combat engineers (proving that they trusted the floating bridge) from the 12th Engineers. The second element across was one of my ordnance contact teams and a recovery point group.

I admit that I have never been in a real combat assault river crossing, but I seriously doubt that doctrine calls for the assault to be led by an Ordnance shop officer in a jeep with a wrecker and a contact team truck.

The reality was that my unit (the old 708th) wasn’t there to train. Sure, we were tactical. We got to fold the windshields down on the jeeps and work from generators instead of base power. But we were there to make sure that the exercise went well for the combat units – our regular job – not to do tactical training.

The second flaw exposed by Mike Rooney’s commentary and underscored in the river-crossing anecdote are at the heart of what happened to the 507th five months ago. In my experience – and I doubt this has changed significantly, combat service support units are simply not allowed to train in peacetime for combat survivability in wartime.

The command structure and culture of the combat units they support will not allow it. No combat formation commander – whether at the company, battalion, brigade and certainly not division level – wants to hear that their combat readiness report is suffering because some rag-tailed Ordnance unit and its commander decided to close the shops and do convoy and ambush reaction training.

No armor brigade commander is interested in being told that his fire control is down and tanks redlined because the fire control mechanics are taking weapons training and running perimeter patrol drills out in the FTX area.

In my years as a either a field logistician or trainer, I met damn few combat commanders who were ever willing to take a hit on their own readiness reports and stand up to their highers so that the CSS guys and gals supporting them could be out taking care of combat training and readiness for their own units.

In my last year or so with the 8th ID, the Division Support Commander was the late Col. Winfield Holt, an Infantry officer’s Infantry officer. He understood our problem, but even he, with the leverage of being a combat line officer, could never buy us the training time.

So on that day in Germany on the Rhine, we I charged across the river on the pointy end of the division, and immediately set to work coordinating collection points and maintenance and supply ops all over the division area. We hauled trucks, fixed tanks, kept artillery pieces running with spit and bailing wire, handed out what parts we had, and generally didn’t sleep much. When the combat units all went home to garrison, we stayed in the field two or three more days picking up the pieces and getting yelled at because we didn’t have so and so’s tank fixed and why weren’t we back at garrison to open the shop?

CSS units, more than any other type of formation in the Army, do their wartime jobs 24 hours a day, seven days a week in peacetime. Most of them do it well and most of them are damn proud of it. They will put their mission skills, their wrench-bruised knuckles, their eyes bleared from reading rain-soaked tech manuals in the dark, their stains and breaks from wrestling with combat recovery vehicles – all of that – up against any unit in the Army. We lived then, and I suspect CSS troops live now, in the world of the immediate.

They are not allowed to live in the world of what might be – a world that might include sudden combat in the rear areas of a force on the march.

The 507th, whatever its internal strengths and weaknesses, was in large measure an ultimate victim of years of both Army doctrine and the paper culture of readiness reporting.

In all likelihood, the 507th was never allowed to fully train in the combat skills that would have saved them that day. If they didn’t do preventive maintenance, it may well have been because, as Rooney senses, that they were spending 24-7 on the people their world focused on – their combat customers. They certainly were not equipped for what happened. CSS doctrine and staffing and equipment all in essence hold a little dark secret: Combat service support units are essentially expendable after the first day or so of battle.

Add that to an ass-covering command culture that too often demonstrates that managing unit paper readiness reports in garrison is more important than obtaining comprehensive combat sustainability, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I suspect this is part of what happened to the 507th Maintenance Co. an An Nasiriyah. It could have happened to any combat support unit in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

David L. Arnold retired as a U.S. Army major after 16 years of service including field service with the 8th ID and duty as a senior logistics trainer and commander of Ober Ramstadt Depot, Germany. He can be reached at arnolds@qx.net.

[Scootter]

Originally posted by miko2d
Scootter: Don't patronize me I understand full well that there are different levels of heroes, what is your level?

 I served combat, let's leave it at that.

I loved how everyone was so against her for playing a hero,

 Surely not everyone. I certainly never blamed her for anything - because she never said anything. I blamed the military for lying about her imaginary feats. In fact when she started talking, she said exactly the same thing - blamed the military for lying about her.

For you to attach any disrespect in my post to our service man and woman shows you are not as smart as you think and shows you know nothing about me.

 You said what you said - "they are all heroes". By trying not to discriminate, you discriminate against those who accomplished more.
  Trying to present my disagreement with you (about your disrespect to real heroes) as if I disrespect Lynch is a lie.
 I respect here for what she really did - enlisting. I readily believe that if her gun was clean and her vehicle did not crash so bad, she would perform well. I do not have to admire her imaginary heroics invented by media in order to respect her.

 miko

I think we agree for the most part on this and you were never one to run with the media crowd on this or any other issue as far a I can tell.
For your service you are also to be commended, I have no bones to pick with you  and we have no argument.

Have a safe and good weekend

[miko2d]

Scootter: For your service you are also to be commended, I have no bones to pick with you  and we have no argument.

 Hmm, well, I did serve the Evil Soviet Empire, so you may want to revise that statement...
 On the other hand I was chasing the same mujaheddin up and down the Afghan cliffs that US military does now, so... er.., It's too confising...  

Have a safe and good weekend

 Same to you.

 miko