Author Topic: AWACS Intercept  (Read 5157 times)

Offline pbirmingham

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« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2001, 02:29:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hblair:
Wanna talk historical fact?

Doolittle bombs Tokyo, not some obscure edge of theatre target, we're talking TOKYO, Japan. Broad daylight raid, 2pm in the afternoon. Didn't lose a single bomber over Japan. The Japanese had no idea what was coming. So much for the all-powerful radar you guys are talking about, huh?

For every *fact* you guys post, I can post another real fact that blows yours out of the water. Both can't be right can they?

Given the relative novelty of radar in April 1942, Japan's notorious difficulties in mass-producing radar sets, and the acute case of "victory disease" suffered by Japan early in the war, is it correct to assume (nowhere in your account is it supported) that Tokyo was under radar coverage at the time of the raid?

Offline dtango

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« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2001, 02:30:00 PM »
Hehe- Uhh..let me be clear-

AKDJ- great posts above the ones that started to get a little personal!    :D

Tango, 1st Lt.
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Offline Suave1

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« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
JAB I don't know when you played AW but I left a few years ago when most everyone else did . And there was no FR AvA, there was only one FR arena period, and that was big pork. And there were plenty of players in the AvA except at odd hours of the day, or during the latewar planeset for reasons allready mentioned by Westy. Like I said the squad I was in (Bose 26) was just one of many squadrons that only flew in that arena .

Again this is off topic, the AW AvA arena had almost the same type of inflight radar map that AH has now in the MA .

 I don't think anyone is asking to change the dar settings in the pork.. er MA, so I'm not sure why so many are in an uproar in this thread .

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: Suave1 ]

Offline hblair

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« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2001, 02:46:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Runny:


Given the relative novelty of radar in April 1942, Japan's notorious difficulties in mass-producing radar sets, and the acute case of "victory disease" suffered by Japan early in the war, is it correct to assume (nowhere in your account is it supported) that Tokyo was under radar coverage at the time of the raid?

So you're saying Tokyo didn't even think they needed radar? or didn't use it. Either way, do we agree that in this case radar was either not used, or not used effectively?

Offline K West

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« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2001, 02:49:00 PM »
"So what level of approximation is considered "realistic" vs. what isn't "realistic"?"

 It is true. Every one will have a different answer.  I can only answer for myself by saying that the bounds of realism are only limited by technology, programming and desire. I feel realism is doable for just about every facet of online play, be it the models in the sim or the tools that help mold the gameplay itself. And without requiring anyone to submit to a military type regimen nor force them to graduate tech/flight school to operate anything.

 An example of where the easy and simple closely replicates reality is the AH radio operation. One key press simulates a mike press for the radio andother simulates tuning the radio.

 An example of where realism is lacking and it's lack definately impacts gameplay is the absence of any complexity in being a bombardier, or bombing itself, in AH.  That may change in 1.09. But would it have changedat all if people were content to live with bombers as they are now and said nothing?

 Things that could additionally be added in the pursuit of realism, and not be excessive IMO, would also include manually retracting flaps, ammo counters where they had them, lack of metric, lack of pilot fatigue from repetative hi-G's. Heck add in a 30 point check list to launch. Somehting like that has no effect on gameplay other than to provide immersion for the few who would wish to sit on the runway with a simulated clipboard to check things off and simulate a "walk around" before flight. But just like the "running" from the tower to the plane has a speed switch to allow folks top bypass that if they wish.

 IMO gameplay concessions are manual trim vs combat trim, fuel management versus auto-fuel and of course my opinion on current grid bar indicators.

 I'd be all for adding more aircraft management too. It's obvious from the text buffer in AH that what some swore and claimed would interfere with online social interaction has been shown not to and as long as there were automated versions of any added feature that it provided less performance than the manual operation of the same would.

 100% immersion is unattainable imo because I will not act like I am in a military arm of any country, I will not die and I wil never know how to actually fly one of these planes.  But if any feature whether it is the plane, a tank, the clouds, the communications, the radar, ordinance use etc etc can be modelled to give a fair representaion of what they had in WWII it only boosts that "I feel like I'm in a WWII aircraft and expereincing WWII style aircombat."  That is what I'm all for.

 I've rambled enough.  

Westy

Offline K West

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« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2001, 03:13:00 PM »
"Anyways, is this a WWII sim or an aircombat simulation?"

 Jesus this is getting old. Rotor, AW was an aircombat game with nary any realism about it at all. It truly was an "aircombat game" using a some sort of planes that wore WWII costumes. The FMs were hokey, bogus in several cases. The guns, ballistics, damage, aircraft and flight management either badly outdated or simply non existant. Luckily we do not have Mage, Moggy or BB (or the suits they reported to) sitting in Grapevine maintaining that it is not good to add feature xxx or xxx as it would make it much too hard for people to socialise and play the  "aircombat game" at the same time. I can';t count how many times I heard "it would take away from the aircombat" from Mage alone. I say this because your statement reminds of all the times that pat answer was whipped out in AW by them as to why something that could boost realism in AW wouldn't or shouldn't be added. Anything to make AW more realistic was always poo-poo'd and deemed as an extra burden on the players. And right to the end that attitude was maintained. "Ultrareal"  FM. <snork> Good lord. My number one wish would be for people new to AH to let AH be AH and not try and turn it into AW.

 Now, no one I've seen post has asked for that whether be they anti or pro current AH radar. I've seen no one is asking for "a WWII sim."  Since you only seem to reply to my posts Rotor I take it you're sniping from the wings at me and with a predispostion to hit what you think I (or anyone else) has said versus what I actually have.

 Start with reading the first few lines about what AH is on the front page. That is what AH  is supposedly. Now look at the all seing radar in the AH main and tell me with a straight face that it is "WWII science."

  My simple point is we seem to have simulated WWII aircraft, in the arena we simulate the aircombat they had in WWII BUT ith the AWACS radar it eliminates many diferent options available to players of all types and it is anything like combat as was experienced in WWII.

 No one has said HTC make it so people have to choose a side, fly only a certian air force types planes and try and conquer the other sides territory.

  Westy


(came back to time stamp this at 16:47est as I bet this topic appears on BW within 24 hrs as "that bad Westy is trashing AW again")

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]

Offline Rotorian

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« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2001, 03:55:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by O'Westy:
(came back to time stamp this at 16:47est as I bet this topic appears on BW within 24 hrs as "that bad Westy is trashing AW again")

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]


You are so freaking paranoid it is funny.  I asked a question, and you go on a rant about AW.  Frankly I could give a flying cahoot<sp> about AW.  I am expressing my opinions in here just like everyone else.  Ofcourse you know about opinions and the human anatomy.

Offline Rotorian

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« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2001, 03:58:00 PM »
And FWIW you big dummy.  I like the "realistic radar" crap.  Just not in the MA.  Now, for scenarios, it would be dandy.  The MA is a hamsterwheel, a game to be gamed.

Offline hblair

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« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »
dar people   =    :confused:

nondar people =   :cool:


 :)

Offline K West

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« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2001, 05:01:00 PM »
My apology for going off on an tangent with AW having a leading role. The exact statement you (Rotor) used pressed an old nerve and the result is easy to see.

 Realism and Easy is a tug of war. In AH it has historically been a tug of war between two differetn groups. One who wants "realism" and another who've wanted "even more realism"   With the influx of AWiers, particulary RR Awiers, I for one am very defensive about things staying the same (if it's unrealistic) and definately on the offensive against having anything get easier (if it's unrealistic).

 But that doesn't have much to to do with the radar discussion other than I'm an advocate for change in regards to AH radar.  

 Westy

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
I'm all for realism... I just think the MA is the wrong place to look for it.  Gameplay should be first and foremost there.

The CT on the otherhand....

AKDejaVu

Offline Rotorian

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« Reply #86 on: December 05, 2001, 05:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by O'Westy:
My apology for going off on an tangent with AW having a leading role.

 Westy

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]


Nothing to apologize for here.  That was not the main point of my second post.

Offline pbirmingham

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« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2001, 05:49:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I'm all for realism... I just think the MA is the wrong place to look for it.  Gameplay should be first and foremost there.

The CT on the otherhand....

AKDejaVu

Stop sayin' stuff I agree with...

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2001, 07:44:00 PM »
"JAB I don't know when you played AW but I left a few years ago when most everyone else did . "

I was involved with AW from late 1996 to last month.  If you played from 1997 to 1999, you missed out on a LOT.

RR AvA was semi-popular for one month out of three after it came out in 1998, in the early-war planeset.  After about mid 1999, RR AvA become under-used in ALL timeframes.   FR AvA was created after you left AW and was used like AH's CT is.

J_A_B

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2001, 08:26:00 PM »
"Jesus this is getting old. Rotor, AW was an aircombat game with nary any realism about it at all. It truly was an "aircombat game" using a some sort of planes that wore WWII costumes. The FMs were hokey, bogus in several cases. The guns, ballistics, damage, aircraft and flight management either badly outdated or simply non existant. "

I will save this for the day when AH is no longer the newest and prittiest.  And instead of Mage/Moggy/Dose you have a former hacker/cheater running the show here.  Nothing meant in a derogatory way, just reminding you that nobody's perfect and nothing lasts forever.  AW's time has passed, and one day so will AH's.

AH's radar isn't WW2 science, but then again neiher are our cockpit instruments or our 3-country system.  The COMBAT between the planes is indeed WW2 science.   And the COMBAT is what matters.

J_A_B