I hate buffs above 25k

[F4UDOA]

Gents,

Here is a quick Buff intercept story to ponder.

Flying my F4U-1C(dweebish but highly effective) when I see on the Map that the Rooks are launching a heavy raid on our Knight HQ from A1 and are already at 20k, so I quickly land and up with 100% fuel and begin to climb. I can see on the map that it is quite a large force of Buffs and quite a large force of Knight defenders so my blood is pumped for this battle royal at 25K. Anyway I can see the cloud of B17 getting closer and I can see defenders making gunnery passes and falling away in flames while the occassional 17 goes down with it.
(This would be awesome in an Historic arena if it were Ju-88 or He-111 instead of B-17's)
So finally I reach 27K and pick a target, as I approach he pulls into a hard virtical and I overshoot and also go virtical. Climbing up I look down and the 17 is now diving and extending so I dive after him. Another Knight comes underneath so he pulls up again and forces another over shoot. He is already D3+ from me and now I am closing so he dives.
HE beggins to pull away somehow so I continue the chase. Finally at 15K I catch him and he tries his move again but I catch him with a long burst and off comes a wing.

I know B17's could not

A. Extend at 350MPH+ in a dive.

B. Make a High G pull up out of that maneuever . Hell, it was a non-rolling virtical sissors. WTF??

When I finally got the kill it was Maximus.
I remember when he start a couple of months ago he could not take off. Now he flying a B17 like a stunt plane. I don't mind the super chargered 50cals but please the outrageous maneuvers are just too much.

Does anyone have the G limit Docs on a B17? Would luv to see them.

Later
F4UDOA

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Downtown:
I just want parity at altitude.  Historically bombers did operate at 27 to 30K.  And Fighters did attack and make multiple passes at 27 to 30K on them same bombers.  If a bomber can turn at 30K then a fighter should be able to turn at 30K.

They did operate at times, but NOT on regular basis, thats the difference.
In World War 2, buffs did bomb from 10k to 25k, even more rare above 25k.

Theres few things that affects altitude.. time, gas, clouds, temperature...
anyway, I doubt that flying B17 over 25k, not to talk about bombing, was too easy to do.

Originally posted by Ash:
I can see in the future a group of Ju88s at 30K being untouchable

I wonder if those Ju-S's climbs that high in AH  (Image removed from quote.)

[Downtown]

Fishu,

I know about altitude..

If the air is so thin at 30K that a P-47 can't turn, then the air is so thin at 30K that a B-17 can't turn either.

I was in a P-47, and I was up at about 27K chasing a buff.  The Buff Reversed to bomb my airfield.  I dove at the buff, who did a turn.  When I tried to turn to follow the buff I stalled and fell 7K feet to 20K.  The Buff took out the fighter hangars and departed the area, with me climbing up to catch him.

I didn't.

If fighters cant turn (and even P-38s with nearly the wingspan of a B-17 can't turn at 30K than B-17s shouldn't be able to turn at 30K without stalling.

I don't mind Bombers in AH using the rudders to turn for defense (These are horizontal turns, which should affect speed and small amounts of atlitude, some yaw.)

I would like the hardness of bomber in AH increased so they with stood more than 1 attack (even from the vaunted 4 Cannon Hog!)

But the Sharp turns that B-17s can make to defeat attackers who if they try to turn with a B-17 stall and fall.

Is there one plane in AH (Pony Exlcuded  ) that shouldn't turn with a bomber at any altitude?

Please provide a reference that says a B-17 at 30K could out turn a P-47 at that alt?

How did P-38s and P-51 and sometimes P-47s stay with the bombers to provide escort?  How did Me-109s and FW-190s make multiple attacking passes on large formations of bombers?



------------------

"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Soda]

F4UDOA,
  I know your pain, especially with this Maximus guy.  He and I have had several encounters over the last week, everytime he's in a B17 at 30K+ and I'm trying to run him down in a 109G10.  It's almost impossible to set up an attack at that altitude since most/all of the fighters handle like crap that high.  You get one chance, then have to cross half the map to climb back into an sort of position.  I have films galore of Maximus flying along at 30K+ and lots of deaths to him in the process.  Channel 1 had Maximus and I chewing it up, but whatever.  If that's how he wants to play that's up to him I guess.

  It just really annoys me to see people doing this all the time now since they can often run up 4 and 5 fighter kill bomber sorties by doing it.  Could a B17 get that high? I don't know, could they bomb and hit anything smaller than a City from that height, I have my doubts.  In AH it is possible, and thus people do it, can you blame them, well, that's a tough call.  I still think that a solo bomber without some sort of cover should be a pretty inviting target.

  I guess it's something we have to live with for now and I hope that someone at HTC hears out plight.

Soda

[SFRT - Frenchy]

F4UDOA, I agree. Those dogfighting B17 are a pain. It's always irritating to survive a dogfight against fighters and die because a buff came down to get you. A lot of buff go on fighter mode as soon as they droped their bombs, that's not very nice. Maybe their ailerons and elevator effectiveness could be reduced to force them to more 'behave like a buff'.

[Zigrat]

at 30k alt, a b17 can do a 180 degree turn and not loose alt.
try this in a fighter, and you will be forced to loose at least 2k alt to complete the manouver.

[RAM]

Guys,guys guys...

just remember that the buffs are "ballanced".

so dont squeak they are just ok!...so do their guns!  

<G,D,R>

[Jigster]

Now I've checked the G pulls in those sharp turns, and they are about half of what's being given. Most are 2G's, and up to 3G's in a max elevator turn (the plane starts creaking) I believe the turn you see in the B-17 are a cooridnated rudder/aileron turn with slight elevator trim to maintain altitude. The bank is normally between 30 and 45 degrees, which is pushing it for a 17, but within it's flight envelope.

At 320 MPH, normally true, the B-17's wings pop off. I've tried it up to 38k using the wind command (above which the preformence goes back to sea-level like stats)At 38k or so the B-17's wings pop off, due to the stall speed execeding the speed the wings can withstand at that altitude.

A B-17 has roughly 4 times the wing area of a P-38. Bombers are designed to be stable right? Combine a stable airframe, and a very large wing area it's no wonder the buffs fly so well at altitude.

B-26 is about the same. I've fought some plane with it and I've ripped the wings several times by pulling over 3.5G's (and I had LOTS of practice being gentle with the A-26 in AW3 with the paper wings   doubt other do much better then me ). It compresses easy once over 300MPH. The Uber turns are really pulling almost no G's because of no elevator deflection by the auto pilot; it's slightly over 2G, about right for the stress on the air frame at a 45 degree bank.

The buffs are right on. But, I think the fighters need to be looked into. But you also have to take into consideration the USAAF placed ceilings on missions, not the pilots. The escort was above them, the enemy was above them. The enemy dives to attack them, the escort dives to attack the enemy. Now where does manuverability come into play?

Oh well. I are dweeb.

- Jig

[Rifle]

Jimbear - First off, a B-17G flying at 27,000' is operating at a historic and documented bombing altitude.
----------------------------------------------
What have you been smoking ?  

I'm almost finished reading "The Mighty Eight" by Gerald Astor in it ...

1) The normal bombing alt was 23k (just above the optimum for 88mm AA)

2) At that height and above, too many things froze - including defensive guns.

3) 4G turns in a Buff ? And the wings didn't come off ? Geez where have I heard that before ??? That other sim designed by HT ?  

BTW, on that last comment, if you can't feel your chain being yanked, go see a doctor 'cause your numb from the ears down ...

Cheers,
   Rifle

[Downtown]

Right Jigster, that large wing area was for stable flight.

NOT FOR TURNING AND DOGFIGHTING!

Fighters should be able to turn at 30K and fight. Perhaps there should be an altitude penalty and resultant loss.  But the AIR up there is thin for bombers the same as it is in fighters.

I don't know if Buff High Alt performance is right on, and I really don't have a problem with it.

But how could Escorts defend bombers if it cost them 2 to 7K of alt every time they had to turn to do so?

Again, I said, rudder turns okay in a B-17, but when you start partial Chandelles or yo-yo's a B-17s performance should suffer just like every other plane.

Either the Buffs are set to perform better at Alt, or the fighters performance is way off.

A while back I did my whine about the Buffs. (I was tired of getting bounced by bombers.)

I said that the bombers were adjusted for game play in the following.

1. Manuverability.
2. Range of leathalty for the .50 (lag issue)
3. High Altitude Performance superior to any fighter.

I said that I was in favor of the following game play adjustments.

1. Increase Ruggedness/Hardness of bombers when attacked by Fighter Aircraft.

2. Decrease the range of all but the tail gun of the bombers for lag, after a bomber drops it's payload.

3. Match performance of fighter aircraft to bombers at altitude.

What I was hoping for was an increase in realism and play ability for bombers.

The Gun Range decrease would discourage "Fighter Bombers." of FB-17 and FB-26 calibre.

The Increase hardness against weaponary would require fighters to make several attack passes against a B-17.

The ability of fighters to manuver with the B-17s (B-26s) at 30K feet would allow the Fighter Pilots to make those several historical passes.

At the very least HT/Pyro should make the effectiveness of the forward .50s of the B-26 equal in effective range to every other .50 cal armed aircraft.

------------------

"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Ripsnort]

The B17's flew in layered formations, from 18k to 27k, depending on the weather. They were not designated to a set alt of 23k.  Read the book about the Bloody 100th, they usually found themselves in low formation, and payed heavy for the price.

And when you folks speak of speed , talk in IAS, sounds like to me your talking in TAS when you speak of 300mph.

[Replicant]

RAF experimented with using B17s at +30k and the main thing that restricted them was engine breather problems resulting in eventual engine damage over long distance.

Very rare that I go over 20k these days, a lot more fun lower alt.  On those very, very rare occasions that I fly at 25k (don't fly B17 much these days, prefer B26 7 -14k) then you're guaranteed to see enemy fighters 5 - 10k higher.  Perhaps it's just my bad luck!

Regards

'Nexx'

[Swager]

Ya should of been on tonite. Buffs attacked Knight HQ from the safe altitude of 32-37K!!  I was wallowing at 33500 and the buffs were above me!

WOW!  

What ever flips you trigger I guess.  I would be embarrased to fly that high, but to each his own.    

[Fishu]

I would really like to see those dogfite B-17 drivers do it in real life, I bet that their wings would come off from the root or tail break off like with the russian concorde  

"excessive stress on control surfaces"

(not to mention gunners being stunned for few seconds)

[Toad]

Ah, Swag...

We were all at 30.5 K. NONE higher, until after the drop. I RTB'd at 32K...passed Knight TAC in a B-26, coalt..he revved and got me on final.  Nice Kill, TAC. I never even bothered to see if u turned around.

In fact were were LOWER than the last Knight Zigrat Raid I intercepted on Bish HQ.

I climbed to 33k on those guys North of our HQ (still hadn't dropped), took hits, dove away in a Mustang.

My personal suggestion? Let's remove all buffs and ground vehicles and get back to Fighter Combat! I'm semi-serious, too!  

<dives for cover>