Author Topic: The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company  (Read 4170 times)

Offline BB Gun

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2003, 06:36:10 PM »
Yes, I are a Boeing Enginerd; no I did not have a hand writing that missive; yes there are good, accurate points in it; yes there is also a fair amount of whining that dilutes an interesting viewpoint.

It circulated around the offices here several months ago.

While the "safety" issue is, I think, overblown.  I do know from personal experience that much of the offloaded design work that gets done gets significant rework when it gets in-house (not just from Russia, but local drafting/engineering houses as well).  Not because people are incompetent, but because of a continuing unfamiliarity with boeing processes and requirements.

The primary issues many people have with the current management are:

1) focusing on "shareholder value" while losing focus and continually redefining what you are/do in order to keep short-term gains and profits at the expense of long term stability, real product development, and growth is a way to lose your core identity and possibly go out of business.  cf. McDonnell Douglas

2) While offloading a certain amount of manufacturing and design makes sense - the more you do it, the more overhead you incur in contract negotiations and cost of change as you change the chain of red tape to engineer->buyer->vendor rep->vendor engineer->vendor production from just engineer->production increasing your overhead costs to offset any gains in efficiency or cost of final product.  

3) offloading primary major structures design and risk, means offloading the value of that design and risk, means offloading the profits you get by taking that risk.  Sharing risk = sharing profits, so you are trading near term costs and risks for fewer long term profits from sales of your product, because you HAVE to share the monies with those who shared your risk.  Again - seemingly a result of focusing on short term "shareholder value" instead of long term company and product viablity.  Not to mention that if you offload big enough chunks of it, you are lowering the barriers to entry for those suppliers and enabling potential competitors.


4) Losing product focus because of the insistence shareholder value means an unwillingness to take the risk to develop world changing products because of the significant risk.  Boeing twice bet the company - 707 and 747 - because of a belief in a product.  Not because of a focus on shareholder value.  It would seem that Boeing now lacks the vision to do the same thing today.  

All in all, the "short term pain for long term gain" philosophy seems to be spottily applied, at best.

BB
« Last Edit: November 18, 2003, 10:04:44 PM by BB Gun »
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Offline Ripsnort

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2003, 07:13:51 PM »
Good post BBGun, you summed it up very well. Bottom line, if any of us owned this company, the probability is high that we'd make drastic decisions like Boeing has over the last 2 years... in the Puget sound alone, employment went from 85,000 to 45,000 people since 9/11.  Future aircraft cancelations into the 5 year forecast was cut by 2/3's.

Yeah, alot was share holder value. And alot is due to cutting cost to remain competitive with that pitbull biting at their heels (Airbus)

Offline Ike 2K#

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2003, 07:21:02 PM »
Would Boeing's  BWB (blended-wing-body) design help them in the future?





i hope we'll see them fly by 2030 and kick the A-3XX's $%&

Offline StSanta

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2003, 08:06:57 AM »
It's all coming together nicely now.

Agent Ripsnort is indeed effective.

My shares in Airbus will...


hey! this isn't my email program!

Offline Boroda

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2003, 10:22:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
And, the Russian engineers I've had the pleasure of speaking to, working with, are very bright, with a good work ethic.

There are some truths in his story, but comprimising safety is not one of them.


Thanks, Rip.

In fact Soviet/Russian commercial (better let's call it "passenger") aviation safety records are quite good. At least as good as Boeing's. We had some planes with bad accident history like Tu-104 or An-10, but we also have extremely safe designs like IL-86.

One of my friends works as a contractor with Tupolev, on Tu-214 long-range version of Tu-204. Our design buraus are doing quite well. The problem is that our brilliant government is deliberately killing our aviation industry, so that some Russian planes bought by foreign companies are not allowed to fly to Russia (!!!) and manufacturers and designers are strangled by taxes worse then oil companies. I think that Boeing's Moscow branch is in much better conditions then our designers. I am glad to know that we have real international cooperation in this field.

Offline mora

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2003, 11:44:54 AM »
The biggest problem of Russian airplane industry is IMHO it's reputation. There is just no way a western airline would buy Tu-204 instead of 737/A320 even if it's half the price. It will take decades for flying public to accept Russian equipment. Hopefully you get enough domestic orders to keep the industry alive.

Offline Boroda

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2003, 12:07:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mora
The biggest problem of Russian airplane industry is IMHO it's reputation. There is just no way a western airline would buy Tu-204 instead of 737/A320 even if it's half the price. It will take decades for flying public to accept Russian equipment. Hopefully you get enough domestic orders to keep the industry alive.


Our taxes and general government politics makes it cheaper to buy Boeings or Airbuses :mad:

Tu-204s were bought by Egyptian airline companies (in fact they sponsored R&D and manufacturing) and some European cheap-ticket airlines. And our beautiful state prohibited them to fly to Russia :mad:

IIRC Chinese want to buy some 204s and IL-96s. They already know good old Tu-154s being reliable as Kalashnikovs.

Offline Hooligan

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The Downfall of a Great American Airplane Company
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2003, 01:18:20 PM »
I worked for Boeing between 1980 and 1984.  I considered it a nightmare of a place to work.  My overwhelming perception was of stifling bureaucracy and rampant incompetence.  I was shocked that it was able to remain in business.  The fact that it did and continues to do so, says a great deal about how well its competitors operate.  To give Boeing its due: when I transferred to the commercial airplane division from the military side the problems seemed much reduce, and the closer you got to the actual aircraft manufacturing process, the better it seemed to get.

Hooligan