Author Topic: killshooter  (Read 1301 times)

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
Re: Bring PNG to AH!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2003, 03:45:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
In AW if you were to shoot down 2 friendly aircraft within 24 hours you were unable to take off with any type of ordnance or ammo.  



Except troops and supplies.

Infact as you know AW dropped PNG in favour of Kill shooter (which many questioned) but it also had such system reports as

"you are shooting at a freindly"

"you have shot down an Ally"

and it penalised points scoring (as if any one cared)


AH has the somewhat more valuable perk points it could subtract.

It could also add the system status report...........

"Goober1 shot down a freindly"

I think a multi pronged approach could be adopted.

1. Prevention. Lesson the lethality of freindly hits. (some figure that reduces the 1 ping freindly kill)

2. Penalty. Deduct perk points for freindly hits. (not just for freindly kills but for each and every hit) PNG for multiple kills.

3. Shame. System report announcing freindly kills.
Ludere Vincere

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
killshooter
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2003, 04:12:41 AM »
Karnak is 100% right.

 Killshooter works, and with wonders, too.

 So why change it? How often does one meet kill shooter induced death anyways? I've both caused kill shooter deaths, and been subject to such deaths, but it's so rare that I hardly notice any so-called 'drawbacks'. Not to mention I apologize with deepest regrets, when I ever cause one.

 Being subject to kill shooter, in whatever end, just simply means you have a sucky SA.

 It's not just how many enemy planes are in the area that matters. SA includes the awareness of all of your surroundings - the whereabouts of your friendly planes are as important as the whereabouts of enemy planes. If possible, knowledge on the personality, skill level, and tendencies of your fellow pilots, are preferable, too.

 Just when do people get KSd?

 More often than not when hordes of friendlies chase after one plane, groveling for a single kill.  KS, in reality, rarely ever happens in fights of equally matched forces. In other words, you would almost never get KSd during a well formed and structured clash of planes, where a clandestine friendly really ACCIDENTALLY crosses your gunsite.

 It happens when everyone is simply blinded by the greed to get a single kill, hordes of people chasing after one plane, that they forget everything else. KS is simply a result of target fixation, glaring stupidity, indifference and disrespect toward your fellow pilots.

 And as Karnak said, precisely because the results are so lethal, that it makes us check twice, look around, try to avoid it. KS is like car accidents. It is the danger of it that implies to people that they should watch out themselves. And if everybody is careful, accident rates will naturally decline.

 Of course, there are people who aren't careful. People who are wreckless, and unaware of what happens around them. That's why there are automobile accidents, and that's why KS victims appear. Both the KS and the KSee is equally in blame, when that ever happens.

 Doesn't matter what you rank at, how much your skill is, how good a fighter pilot you are. If someone gets shot down because of KS, they deserve it.  The one being KSd, is not really an "innocent victim" at all.

 Also, the one who induced someone's death by KS, is most likely to be flamed. People get angry against such people, and most likely he will be victim of such consequences himself - since the same kind of people will be hording in the same spot most of the times, wrecklessly and pathetically groveling for a single kill.  

 KS works. You can hiss and moan and blame and flame the one who gives you KS all you want, but as long as the system is there, you will be the one who is going down, and it will make you think twice next time.  It urges people to stay responsible for their own safety. Which in turn, dramatically lessens the idiocy of people shooting at their own planes.

 If KS is such a problem for someone, I suggest he better correct his flying style, first.

Offline DipStick

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2157
      • http://www.theblueknights.com
killshooter
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2003, 06:55:09 AM »
PNG was ok in AW. I think the "ammo goes to zero" would work too. Basically you shoot a freindly and your ammo goes to 0, you have to return to base. It's not as bad as dieing but close. It wouldn't count as a death against you but would cost you in k/h and k/s. My $0.02

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
killshooter
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2003, 07:14:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 Killshooter works, .


I can understand this arguement.......

I agree with the penalty side of things........

I see that kill shooter makes the guilty suffer in a direct and fatal way.........

I see that its an SA issue.



Frankly my view is that the penalty is not high enough and that it only effects one party when both (most often***)should be penalised.

Shanes comment may be valid ......... let them both die. (its simple enough)

What we see in the MA (kill shooter is not an issue anywhere else) are massive furballs where freindly bullets do not  (seemingly) represent a hazard.

You must have seen it.

1) freindlies diving between chaser and chased to get a snap shot.

2) freindlies shooting over the shoulder of other freindlies.

3) freindlies racing to over take other freindlies to take the kill.


We can take these each in isolation and show how its an SA issue or how kill shooter deals with the problem.

But lump them together and you see how kill shooter allows a mind set to establish.

"let the shooter beware!"

In actual fact it becomes

"let only the shooter beware"

Whilst i have suggested several methodologies the core of my opinion is that "let the shooter beware" is (whilst essential) not enough.

Snap shotting, kill stealing, cherry picking gangbangers should also be aware that the victim (potentially himself) is also at some risk.

That when they dive into a melee with the object of the easy kill they risk the bullets of their freinds as much as their own when damaging freindlies.

Thats the core of my view. The actual methods of penalty, or consequences of action I might hold likes and dislikes for but essentially these could be several different proposals.
Ludere Vincere

Offline mold

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 305
Re: Re: Bring PNG to AH!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2003, 08:50:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
1. Prevention. Lesson the lethality of freindly hits. (some figure that reduces the 1 ping freindly kill)


Disagree.  Why should anyone be immune to friendly bullets at all?  They weren't immune IRL and they shouldn't be here either.

Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
2. Penalty. Deduct perk points for freindly hits. (not just for freindly kills but for each and every hit) PNG for multiple kills.


Agree.  Friendly bullet holes are punished by "lack of trust" and a semi-probation (i.e. fewer perks), and more severe penalties for friendly kills.  There should be a scale of severity on friendly kills, like 1 kill = no ammo for 1 hour.  2 kills = can't fly planes for 1 hour.  Etc.  This is more penalizing than killshooter, as it should be, but not directly penalizing in the immediate situation, also as it should be and as it was IRL.

Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
3. Shame. System report announcing freindly kills.


Yes, also agreed.



Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
If KS is such a problem for someone, I suggest he better correct his flying style, first.


Orthogonal to the issue.  It's not that anyone is really affected by KS.  Not much anyway.  It's the principle of the thing.  Doesn't make any sense WRT real life, and is unnecesary from an incentives point of view.  That is, there are better incentive structures available.

Edit:  Actually, I shouldn't quite say that.  KS may not have a direct impact on anything most of the time, but the *existence* of killshooter causes unrealistic dweebified situations to arise on a regular basis, as Tilt points out.  Slavering overtaking gangbangs, etc.  So it is both a theoretical and practical fault.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2003, 09:03:31 AM by mold »

Offline mold

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 305
killshooter
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2003, 09:02:46 AM »
Another related issue that mrblack brought up above, and which requires a solution, is what to do with friendly collisions.  It would be good to come up with some way to allow friendlies to collide, but still get around the problem of dweebs purposefully ramming their teammates with no consequences beyond death.  The solution could be similar to the friendly fire solution presented above, but the fundamental problem I think is in determing who is at fault in a collision.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2003, 09:05:14 AM by mold »

Offline Rutilant

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1352
killshooter
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2003, 12:00:27 PM »
I think the one time i killshot myself was aaaaaages ago. I was vulchin' in a 110 and a friendly spit swooped into my bullet stream at a 90* angle..  No complaints here - i love 'accidentally' sliding in front of people's bullet streams that try and shoot over my shoulder. :D

When it sucks is when some dipchit with a grudge hops in an M3 and tries to get you to KS your tiger on him :p

Offline Don

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 898
killshooter
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2003, 01:39:03 PM »
>>Being subject to kill shooter, in whatever end, just simply means you have a sucky SA<,

No, it doesn't.

>>the whereabouts of your friendly planes are as important as the whereabouts of enemy planes. If possible, knowledge on the personality, skill level, and tendencies of your fellow pilots, are preferable, too. <<

Elementary SA 101;but why would anyone care about the personality, skill level and tendencies of fellow pilits; especially if one has never seen them?
If I'm 5k below some dweeb kill stealer workin on an nme to get saddled up, I'm gonna know where other nme are before I commit to the kill move, part of that isn't watching out for a friendly 5k above me, or even 2k above and behind me. I wont fly that way, and shouldn't have to.
IMO I'd rather be able to say oops and shoot the bastid down. I would pay by whatever means determined by the owners of the game, but the dweeb who flew in front of me "out of greed" would pay too. In this way the "idiot" who flew irresponsibly might learn something from the experience. As KS is now, only one suffers, and the rightness of that is in question for me.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2003, 01:58:23 PM by Don »

Offline Rutilant

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1352
killshooter
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2003, 02:18:07 PM »
Every time i let my countrymate handle it,the con ends up gettin away or killin the guy i let handle it :p

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Re: Bring PNG to AH!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2003, 06:25:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
Except troops and supplies.

Infact as you know AW dropped PNG in favour of Kill shooter (which many questioned) but it also had such system reports as

"you are shooting at a freindly"

"you have shot down an Ally"

and it penalised points scoring (as if any one cared)


AH has the somewhat more valuable perk points it could subtract.

It could also add the system status report...........

"Goober1 shot down a freindly"

I think a multi pronged approach could be adopted.

1. Prevention. Lesson the lethality of freindly hits. (some figure that reduces the 1 ping freindly kill)

2. Penalty. Deduct perk points for freindly hits. (not just for freindly kills but for each and every hit) PNG for multiple kills.

3. Shame. System report announcing freindly kills.


AW never had the killshooter system.  Instead friendly fire didn't do any damage and I think it wasn't until A3/MV that they removed it.  AW4W had PNG all the way until the bitter end.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
Re: Re: Re: Bring PNG to AH!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2003, 06:41:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
AW never had the killshooter system.  Instead friendly fire didn't do any damage and I think it wasn't until A3/MV that they removed it.  AW4W had PNG all the way until the bitter end.


ack-ack


I dont think PNG ever saw AW3 ......it was an arena setting so could be switched on and off.

As could freindly fire lethality.

AW4W was dead by early 97.

What was anti-frag?  I thought that was the same as kill shooter.
Ludere Vincere

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
killshooter
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2003, 08:43:03 PM »
I never saw any type of anti-frag or killshooter system in AW3/MV.  I didn't switch over until '97 when AW4W finally went tits up.  From that time to the end of AW3/MV, I only remember having friendly fire disabled, with the exception of bombs.  



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: Bring PNG to AH!!!!!
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2003, 09:16:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
While not perfect, the PNG system in AW was a lot better than killshooter in AH.  In AW if you were to shoot down 2 friendly aircraft within 24 hours you were unable to take off with any type of ordnance or ammo.  And for every friendly kill above the initial two in the 24 hour period resulted in an additional 24 hours being tacked on to your PNG status.  It did a pretty good job of getting rid of the griefers.



ack-ack


Cant argue with that idea :)  I thought it was much more fun being chased down by multiple bogies to get them to shoot each other.

Offline GODO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 555
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm
killshooter
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2003, 03:39:28 PM »
SA? I cant manage the views as well as I manage my head. Does most players have a HOTAS with several 8 way hats and function buttons to cover all the possible views with a single finger movemet? no, surely not at all. It is just hard enough to keep pressing the arrows to pan your view through the canopy bars while pressing trim or rudder keys to track the enemy (but, that cant be done, we have only two hands and one should be on stick).

If friendly fire needs to be punished, how about punishing by ammo instead of damage? For example, draining 25% of total ammo per hit.

Offline Seeker

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
killshooter
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2003, 04:56:31 PM »
killshooter?


Wait until HTC enable friendly collisions in the MA..........