Author Topic: speaking of lawsuits... (Read 2306 times)

Sandman · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2003, 04:40:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
but... my sandy eyed friend.... you still haven't answered the question...

Do you think that a victim of a violent crime who has been previously dennied a concealed carry permit (the only allowed way to carry in Ca. anyway) by the capricious whim of the police chief and powers he answers to.... do yu think that person is entitled to compensation via lawsuit? He has been denied the 2nd amendment right to bear arms and because of that he has been harmed.

let's put the lawyers to helping us for a change.
lazs

No. The right to carry a concealed weapon is not guaranteed by the Constitution.

Sandman · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2003, 04:41:03 PM »

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Originally posted by SOB
Personally, I'd rather have my weapon conceiled if I happen to have it with me while I'm grocery shopping / renting a movie / etc. Carrying a holstered sidearm would undoubtedly cause a stir almost anywhere you'd go in the normal course of a day in the big city, don't you think?

Only because it's not the norm.

SOB · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2003, 04:57:09 PM »

Well, yeah, hence allowing people to carry concealed weapons.

vorticon · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2003, 05:16:22 PM »

if a criminal walks into a building to rob it and sees someone with a gun...chances are he'll just keep on walking or shoot the guy with the gun (chances are the shopkeep HAS a gun)...but if we walks in and sees a person without a gun hes gonna rob the place and leave...but if the person has the gun then he's going to wait till the robber starts robbing the place before pulling it...and if he doesnt then the robber leaves with the cash...

either way the criminal loses

SOB · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2003, 07:13:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by vorticon
if a criminal walks into a building to rob it and sees someone with a gun...chances are he'll just keep on walking or shoot the guy with the gun (chances are the shopkeep HAS a gun)...but if we walks in and sees a person without a gun hes gonna rob the place and leave...but if the person has the gun then he's going to wait till the robber starts robbing the place before pulling it...and if he doesnt then the robber leaves with the cash...

either way the criminal loses

That was profound.

cpxxx · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2003, 08:30:19 PM »

Is it worth getting into a firefight for the sake of a few hundred bucks of someone else's money? Or even your own money? If I was carrying a sidearm I would not draw it unless my life was directly threatened or that of someone else. Most robbers armed or not want in and out in a few seconds. I would certainly not risk my life to save a few Euro for some convenience store owner.

I actually walked in on a robbery once, a post office. I stopped at the door as the first robber ran out to the getaway car. I was surprisingly calm, it is amazing how quickly you can consider options in that situation. I had a motorcycle helmet in my hand and actually thought about smacking him with it. He read my mind and growled 'Don't do it' as he passed me. I didn't for two reasons. First, tactically I was at a disadvantage. I hadn't seen the other robber and for all I knew he had a gun. Even a baseball bat would have outgunned me. I think he only had a stick actually. Secondly it wasn't my money and I wasn't going to die for it.

In the end they took less than a hundred. Now if I had a gun on my person. Would I have drawn it? I don't know. No one would have thanked me for adding to the drama of the situation by firing off a few rounds. It's a moot point anyway as the only people in this country carrying concealed weapons are police detectives, contract killers and terrorists!

So in my view the only reason to carry a concealed weapon is when you believe your life is in some kind of danger on an ongoing basis. Like you insulted the local Tony Soprano or you carry a lot of cash on your person or you live in a place with thousands of guns in circulation in the hands of criminals, where guns are as cheap as the lives they take. But if you live in say Vermont or South Dakota do you really need to carry a gun on your person all day? That I suppose is what a police chief might need to consider before issuing a permit.

OIO · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2003, 08:40:48 PM »

I think the problem is when Tony Soprano visits Vermont or South Dakota.

Leslie · « **Reply #22 on:** November 22, 2003, 10:01:44 PM »

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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I've never understood the need for concealed weapons. If you're going to carry, why not put it right out there where they can see it? Is there some tactical advantage to having a hidden weapon? Do the risks of such hidden weapons outweigh the benefit?

The main reason is because carrying right out there would make people uncomfortable, to say the least. It could cause trouble if you're challenged because of it. Any nut who would pick on someone bigger than themselves...drunk for example, might not think twice about putting you in a situation where you might have to shoot or run. That's why Wyatt Earp made everyone turn in their weapons when they came to Dodge City.

In modern times, the idea of concealed carry is for defensive purposes only, by law abiding citizens. The permits are very limiting as to where you can carry...no bars or sporting events, or anywhere there's a lot of people, a parade for example.

My thoughts are folks need to take personal responsibility when it comes to carrying a handgun. It is very serious business, and can also get you in a lot of trouble. It's not for everyone.

I urge anyone who carries, to practice regularly and become familiar with the firearm. It's not a good idea to leave the gun in the car when you go places, and it becomes a big hassle after awhile because it's always on your mind and in your pocket (it should be.) It is restrictive to your movements pretty much, and does limit your options if the gun comes out...you might have to kill someone or run like hell.

Do the risks outweigh the benefits to carry? Depends who you are, what your situation is, and your skill level with firearms. I'll grant you, much grief can come from their mishandling, and I again strongly urge anyone who is thinking about carrying, to practice, practice, practice...and practice some more with a qualified instructor, and heed their advice.

Les

beet1e · « **Reply #23 on:** November 23, 2003, 05:40:31 AM »

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Originally posted by storch
An armed society tends to be a polite society

Japan, Singapore, ...

Thrawn · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2003, 07:04:26 AM »

So in some states only criminals aren't allowed to concealed carry. So it is quite possible that people that are barking fricking mad are?

I know in Washington state if you want your licence you can't have been in a rubber room, what about other states?

lazs2 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 23, 2003, 09:27:41 AM »

sandie and cpx... storch explained it... crime goes down when crooks think the citizens may be armed...

not all robberies end up with the kindly robin hood cleaning out the cash rgister and then tiping his hat at the ladies and throwing back his cape and galloping away... mostly they are brutal life threatening affairs. People here are killed in robberies all the time. better the crook die than the innocent

but... no one answered the question... Do you think that we should be able to sue the pompous police chief and city that he works for if we are the victim of a violent crime after vbeing dennied the right to arm ourself?

japan? singapore? is that the society that you would live in? it is fine for some but....

lazs

Leslie · « **Reply #26 on:** November 23, 2003, 09:54:36 AM »

The other day I pulled into a carwash in my 98. This was in a black area of town not far from my house. I was busy washing the whitewalls when I heard, "Hey buddy, how ya doin? I say hey there buddy, how's it going?" I look up and see a guy holding a screwdriver in his hand. "You wanna sell that car?'

"It's not for sale," I say. "That's a clean car bro," he says. "Have I seen you somewhere before, where you work?"

I said, "I don't work."

He left me alone and went back to his buddy at the vacuum. I was not carrying a gun, wasn't scared at all.

Les

Sandman · « **Reply #27 on:** November 23, 2003, 10:02:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
sandie and cpx... storch explained it... crime goes down when crooks think the citizens may be armed...

You're going to have to provide some sort of statistical evidence of it.

Oh... and I did answer the question.

lazs2 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 23, 2003, 10:08:23 AM »

there is no point in being friegtened around people.. it is a good thing to exercise caution tho. I spent a lot of my youth around people who, a smart man, should be frieghtend of... depends on the situation. It never hurts to be prepared.... Mostly... if you look capable of handling yourself and seem alert... you will be ok... unless you are elderly or a woman... women and the elderly are arming themselves at an excelerated rate... that is as it should be.

so... the question remains.... if you are the victim of a violent crime should you be able to sue the police chief and city who governs him that denied you the right to defend yourself with a firearm? they also failed to protect you after disarming you... Most have even removed the motto "to protect and serve" because of possible legal problems about implied promise.

so??? com'on it's not a difficult question...
lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 23, 2003, 10:12:05 AM »

sandie... you could look at florida or Vermont or you could read John Lotts book. You will find plenty of statistical evidence... you could use washington d.c or new york city as examples of gun control making things worse.

so.... what do you think? should we be able to sue if we are the victims of violent crime because we were dennied the right to defend ourselves? And... what are your reasons either way?
lazs