Author Topic: Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters  (Read 2054 times)

Offline Widewing

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« on: November 25, 2003, 06:49:15 PM »
"As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the FW-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed--so much of the experience was gone. As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that. I was always scared--that was what made me move quick. "Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down."

When Johnson states that the P-47 was faster than the Mustang, he is using his hotrodded P-47D-5-RE "Lucky", S/N 42-8461 for reference. Johnson's crew chief (Pappy Gould) worked magic on the R-2800. Johnson repeatedly claimed he could pull 72" of MAP and reported airspeeds of 470 mph TAS. Squadron-mates agreed that Johnson's Jug was far faster than any other P-47 in the 61st FS. Lt. Joe Powers flew Johnson's Jug on an escort mission and was horrified at the thought of pulling 72" MAP when Gould briefed him on the airplane. Powers reportedly firewalled the throttle on the return leg and was stupified at the speed. He simply ran away from the rest of the squadron. Even though Johnson's Jug was fitted with water injection, Johnson never used it. In an interview for the P-47 Pilots Association newsletter, Johnson stated, "I didn't need it, it was fast enough."

For the record, Johnson eliminated two of the top Luftwaffe aces in the west.

On October 8, 1943, he shot down and killed Hans Philipp. Philipp was the 12th highest scoring Luftwaffe ace of the war and was credited with 206 kills when he died. I believe that Philipp was the leading scorer flying in the west at the time of his death (although most of his victories came in the east).

On March 2, 1944 Johnson shot down and killed Egon Mayer (of JG 2), 102 kills, all in the west.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline FUNKED1

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2003, 07:15:37 PM »
Are those Johnson's words or Johnson's words as told to/filtered by/revised by Martin Caidin?

Offline Nod

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2003, 07:58:47 PM »
I read once by another pilot.......can't rember his name right now but he said "you know every pilot out there thinks his plane is the best and to him it is........well exept for the P-40 pilots"

In other words don't belive a pilots BS, I have read books where they belived the P-39 was the best plane of the war....yah i have to admit that the P-39 was ok, but it can't compete with a late model P-51, P-47, Spit, Yak, or a N1ki

Offline davidpt40

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2003, 08:04:16 PM »
Quote
ub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW.


I thought he bent his prop up on the ground and had to land near a German airfield.

Offline Kweassa

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2003, 08:39:47 PM »
The prop bending was Mr. Gabreski

Offline HoHun

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Re: Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2003, 11:39:47 PM »
Hi Widewing,

>Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47.

I'd say Johnson lacked the basis for a fair comparison as he (hopefully) didn't shoot down enough P-47s to get a good average ;-)

>When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets.

While this was impressive, I'd attribute that more to luck than to anything else. German experience was that the four-engined bombers went down after an average of 25 x 20 mm hits, and they were recognized as a lot tougher than the P-47. I'm sure some four-engined bombers returned safely with a multiple of these average 25 cannon hits, too.

>Johnson repeatedly claimed he could pull 72" of MAP and reported airspeeds of 470 mph TAS.

As the P-47 achieved it's top speed at very high altitude, the compressiblity error of the airspeed indicator was considerable. As this phenomenon doesn't seem to have been included in the typical WW2 fighter pilot training, I consider it likely that the 470 mph figure lacked the compressiblity correction.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Widewing

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2003, 12:31:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Are those Johnson's words or Johnson's words as told to/filtered by/revised by Martin Caidin?


Johnson's words, recorded in an interview for Military History magazine, just days before he left for Lawton, Oklahoma where he died on December 27, 1998.

I had several long phone conversations with Bob in the weeks before he left to visit his relatives (in Lawton). I've posted part of those recorded conversations to this board in the past.

A few months before he passed on, Bob's book was re-released having been re-edited by Johnson and having added some material. He sent me a copy. It's still available from Honoribus Press, located in the town where Bob retired, Spartanburg, South Carolina. ISBN 1-885354-050-3. About $17 in softcover.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: November 26, 2003, 10:51:13 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Re: Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2003, 01:19:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Widewing,

>Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47.

I'd say Johnson lacked the basis for a fair comparison as he (hopefully) didn't shoot down enough P-47s to get a good average ;-)

>When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets.

While this was impressive, I'd attribute that more to luck than to anything else. German experience was that the four-engined bombers went down after an average of 25 x 20 mm hits, and they were recognized as a lot tougher than the P-47. I'm sure some four-engined bombers returned safely with a multiple of these average 25 cannon hits, too.

>Johnson repeatedly claimed he could pull 72" of MAP and reported airspeeds of 470 mph TAS.

As the P-47 achieved it's top speed at very high altitude, the compressiblity error of the airspeed indicator was considerable. As this phenomenon doesn't seem to have been included in the typical WW2 fighter pilot training, I consider it likely that the 470 mph figure lacked the compressiblity correction.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Hiya Henning!

Bob had a few Jugs shot up, he also killed a lot of 190s and 109s. There is little doubt that the P-47 was a very stout aircraft, generally over-engineered as compared to the P-51. Of all allied fighters in the ETO, the P-47 had the best loss per sortie ratio by a considerable margin. And keep in mind that the P-47 spent the last 9 months of the war down in the weeds flying close support ann interdiction where the flak is severe. If you have seen photos of the P-47C Johnson brought home (twenty-one 20mm hits), you realize that this was one rugged fighter. And yes, he was lucky that the hits were not concentrated in one locale. Yet, his tale was common-place.

As to the speed of his P-47; Pratt & Whitney tech reps were largely responsible for giving Gould the secrets of horsepower production in the R-2800. Engines with the same wastegate modifications were tested at P&W and produced in excess of 2,700 hp on the dynometer, and did so for hundreds of hours at full throttle. The later "C" series R-2800 (used in the P-47M and N) generated 3,600 hp during similar endurance testing. It should not be a surprise that a P-47D-5-RE should attain similar speeds to the P-47M with 2,800 hp with slightly greater drag. Gould also filled all gaps in seams and waxed Johnson's Jug to reduce parasite drag.

By the Spring of 1944, there wasn't a P-47 in the 56th that hadn't been field modified like Johnson's. Ask any of the surviving crew chiefs. When 150 octane fuel became available in early '44, 72" MAP became the standard for combat operations. While this setting was never incorporated into the standard issue pilot's manual, it is easily found in 8th AF Fighter Command technical bulletins and operational instructions.

I have a great photo in my collection of a 56th FG P-47 sitting on 9th AF airfield in Belgium. It suffered a turbo failure and the pilot landed at the nearest field. Surrounded by 9th AF Jugs, the 56th fighter stood out. It was waxed and as clean as it was when delivered. Contrasting this were the filthy, beat-up Jugs of the 9th AF.

I believe Johnson's observation was accurate, and it is supported by the others in his squadron at the time (61st FS).

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline F4i

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2003, 03:16:17 AM »
Dang, Wide...I didn't know that you spoke with these pilots.  I'm searching for your old posts with recorded transcripts from previous conversations.  Now, wherrrrrrre are they?!?  :)

TBolt

Offline Oldman731

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2003, 06:59:30 AM »
Thanks for posting this, Widewing.  Didn't know that RSJ had re-done his book, will have to look for it.

- oldman

Offline -ammo-

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2003, 08:38:18 AM »
Thx WW
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Re: Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2003, 01:28:48 PM »
Hi Widewing,

>There is little doubt that the P-47 was a very stout aircraft

There's little doubt that the Fw 190 was a very stout aircraft either. I don't think shooting at and killing type A while getting shot at and surviving in type B is a valid comparison method.

>Yet, his tale was common-place.

Do you mean that there were more P-47s who returned with 21 x 20 mm hits?

>It should not be a surprise that a P-47D-5-RE should attain similar speeds to the P-47M with 2,800 hp with slightly greater drag.

I'm sure you're aware of the F4U-4 comparison report which has data on a P-47D of a subvariant that has been subject to some discussion on this forum.

From the R-2800-C power graph in that comparison report, it can be estimated that increasing boost from 64" Hg to 72" Hg that might give as much as a 300 HP gain.

At the same time, the ciritical altitude drops. From the P-47D high-speed power chart, the critical altitude for 2900 HP can be estimated as about 26500 ft.

At this altitude, running at 64" Hg boost yielding 2600 HP, the P-47D referenced in this report achieves a speed of 438 mph. Increasing boost to 72" Hg and power to 2900 HP would give us a calculated top speed of 454 mph.

Still very impressive, but far from the 470 mph you mentioned.

(Just how far? Well, the P-47D in question would need no less than 3200 HP to get there. And my calculations actually neglect the transsonic drag rise that at these speeds begins to make itself felt.)

>I believe Johnson's observation was accurate, and it is supported by the others in his squadron at the time (61st FS).

Well, I do actually agree that Johnson's observation was accurate.

While he reported a true air speed of 470 mph, he certainly didn't have a TAS-recording instrument on the dashboard of his P-47. He probably read the air speed indicator to get IAS, applied the position error correction to get CAS, and then used his calculator to transform it into TAS.

I do, however, think Johnson's observation was incomplete.

One important step in determining TAS is converting CAS to EAS, accounting for the compressibility error. As far as I can tell, this was not usually part of the training of WW2 fighter pilots in any air force. Though engineers were well aware of it, pilots generally were not.

470 mph TAS at 26500 ft would result from 267 KCAS with no compressibility correction. However, 267 KCAS are only 258.5 KEAS, so the correct TAS figure is actually 455 mph.

This is so close to the rough estimate of the speed for a P-47D with 72" Hg that I'm surprised myself :-) There's actually a fair margin of error in my estimate so please don't take the exact mph figure as the final word on P-47D performance!

However, I have no doubt that Johnson's belief that his P-47 could actually achieve 470 mph TAS is wrong.

Not by a fault of his own, I hasten to add - I'm convinced his training hadn't provided him with the background on compressibility, which actually was the leading edge of contemporary research. Engineers and test pilots needed to know about it, but for fighter pilots it was largely irrelevant anyway.

Fighter pilots had to know and respect the redline speeds of their aircraft, and all manuals I have seen give these speeds with the compressibility error already figured in so that the pilot wouldn't have to think about the conversion in combat. The Me 262 was actually given an airspeed indicator indicating TAS directly for most of the speed range, and IAS only for low speeds.

That made perfect sense at the time, but it has to be remembered when drawing conclusions from the pilots' accounts.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline F4i

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2003, 02:28:37 PM »
Is it just me?  Or, does it seem like Wide & HoHun are the same person with a split personality?  :D

Allow me to write you a new Rx...

TBolt

Offline gripen

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2003, 03:28:13 PM »
Hm... Well, early B-series R-2800 (21?) and 72" without water injection sounds quite high. Water injection system in the P-47 worked automaticly (IIRC it started to work at given MAP say 54" or something). I have so far seen reference for 66" with grade 100/150 (R-2800-59, early models a lot less) and 70" with water but I have not seen evidence that 8th AF got that fuel before summer -44. Officical rating with water for the B-series was 58" at spring 1944 (grade 100/130).

Philipps shot down has been under discussion on various forums and AFAIK there is no consensus if it was Johnson or Bombers or someone else. At least AFHRA lists no claims for Johnson at March 2, 1944 (Mayer shot down).

gripen

Offline Widewing

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Bob Johnson's observation of Luftwaffe fighters
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2003, 06:58:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Water injection system in the P-47 worked automaticly (IIRC it started to work at given MAP say 54" or something).

Philipps shot down has been under discussion on various forums and AFAIK there is no consensus if it was Johnson or Bombers or someone else. At least AFHRA lists no claims for Johnson at March 2, 1944 (Mayer shot down).

gripen


Prior to the P-47D-11-RE, all P-47s fitted with water injection used a manual switch to turn on the pump. Problem was that in the heat of combat many pilots forgot to flip the switch. Johnson's Jug in this case was a P-47D-5-RE. P-47D-10-RA Jugs received the new G.E. C-21 turbocharger, but still retained manually operated water injection. This changed with the P-47D-11-RE, which had the new turbo and automatic WEP water injection (per Bodie).

Johnson has specifically mentioned the manual water injection switch during several interviews.
 
As to Egon Mayer... You are absolutely correct. I pulled my 56th FG history out and compared facts with a later publication that claimed Johnson nailed Mayer. Not only did Johnson not shoot down Mayer, but he was grounded for a physical ailment for most of the period in question.

In fact, the opposite nearly occured... It was Egon Mayer who stumbled upon Johnson's battered Jug and emptied his guns into it! Mayer, having fired the last of his last ammunition, flew alongside Johnson staring at the Thunderbolt in disbelief. He gave a wave, rocked his wings and headed for home. He apparently claimed Johnson as a kill, certain the wrecked fighter would never reach England.

Anyway, I shot an e-mail off to the author of the piece where he claims Johnson shot down Mayer. His initial response was that his research shows Johnson was the guy. Impossible for Robert Johnson.. Maybe some other Johnson. Either way, he is incorrect because Johnson's next mission was on March 8, not March 2 as he asserts. On March 2, only 6 Luftwaffe fighters were claimed by 8th AF fighters, and all of those appear to have been brought down by P-51s.

In contrast, there seems to be little doubt about Hans Phillipp. Johnson shot down a Bf 110, and then, alone, attacked four Fw 190s. He obliterated the lead 190. Most historians concur that the facts reported by the Luftwaffe pilots flying with Phillipp and Johnson's account are in agreement in detail as well as location and time of day. I believe that historians Raymond Tolliver and Trevor Constable discovered this and verified it as fact.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.