Bush restores trade balance with China!

[Airhead]

Originally posted by ra
First of all, without the US Taiwan would be another province of communist China.  Secondly, if the US sold out Taiwan, it was 30 years ago when we adapted the 'one-China' policy.  This is just a continuation of that policy.  

Our policy is that Taiwan is part of China, but that the mainland cannot reclaim the island without the consent of the Taiwanese people.  The current referendum is just an election-year ploy for Taiwan's president.

That said, Taiwan's years are numbered.  Mainland nationalism is very strong and Taiwan's separation is becoming a source of humiliation.  As China becomes richer and more powerful the people of the mainland will demand that Taiwan be reclaimed whether the people of Taiwan want it or not.

ra

But...but... I thought Bush's stated objective is to spread American-style democracy throughout the World... and Taiwan has had de facto indipendance since the 40s... and has a Democratically elected Government modeled after our own...

Somebody please listen to Rush Limbaugh and tell me what to think.

[ra]

the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...

My my, the Canadians are condescending today, aren't they?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by vorticon
the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...

I take it as a horrible offence.

You mean that the bastards that were elected by brainwashed majority last Sunday represent ME!? If they do - I refuse to be a part of this people.

Damn. I start to really hate this democracy.

Does anyone here that a stinking bum collecting empty bottles from trash-cans should participate in making decisions that affect your life?!?!?

[vorticon]

well its a bash to at least 51% of the population...if you didnt vote or voted for the other party your obviously not getting bashed

Does anyone here that a stinking bum collecting empty bottles from trash-cans should participate in making decisions that affect your life?!?!?

i beleive you need a fixed address to vote...wich means bums dont get to vote...

[miko2d]

vorticon: the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...

 Few technical corrections. "the party" is not elected, a person is. And he does not represent "the people", just the majority. And does not really "represent" but serves.

 Not that that I would shy away from bashing "the people" when they deserve it but in this particular case your slander of us is totally undeserved.

 Do you really think that american people - especially the rebublican almost-half of them (communism=Empire of Evil types) who voted for rebublicans in 2000 would have preferred to support expansionist communist China against democratic capitalist Taiwan if asked then - or even now?

 Did chinese institute personal liberties? Allowed gun ownership? Private enterprise? Free Trrade? Abandoned practices of forced abotion? Allowed free speech? Stopped aresting and torturing political opponents? Selling prisoners for body parts? Allowed real elections?

 Do you think it is a treason for anyone, regardless of the party, not to vote for re-election of the president in his second-term - since he was obviously elected and thus must be the best choice?
 Is that a treason to campaign for a different candidate? To criticise the government? To remember what Founding Fathers said about watching one's own government lest it turn tyranical?
 Is it a treason to think at all?

 Many americans surely think so, if that process can be called "thinking", the traitors.


Boroda: Damn. I start to really hate this democracy.

 Boroda, you are so ignorant. You are just starting to hate "democracy" - and probably not understanding why, just feeling the consequences.

 If there is one book you read in your life, get and read "Democracy - The God That Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Brilliant treatise on the nature of democratic government.
 You will stop groping in the dark.

 miko

[Boroda]

Originally posted by miko2d
Boroda, you are so ignorant. You are just starting to hate "democracy" - and probably not understanding why, just feeling the consequences.

 If there is one book you read in your life, get and read "Democracy - The God That Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Brilliant treatise on the nature of democratic government.
 You will stop groping in the dark.

Sorry, Miko. I must have heard of this book. It's hard to check my sources, is it the one where it is explained why real "democracy" never leads to sane and reasonable decisions, and it is proven by mathematical calculations?

You see, here I am limited by my lingual abilities and failure to translate some concepts. So I try to express myself as well as I can.

As for "feeling the consequences" - I doubt that under Soviet version of "democracy" I could live better. Maybe I could feel more secure, but in fact I am doing quite well, and I could do even better if I wasn't such patologicaly lazy.

With my natural-science education I can only say that so-called "democracy" is nothing but a curtain for the blind populus, hiding real interests and forces with propaganda. With contemporary media technologies it's possible to make people vote for the party that suggests physical eliminations of everyone who votes for it.

[Boroda]

Sorry, I didn't see that you didn't realize that I wrote that I hate this democracy.

Here is an election thread at our Forum. It's in Russian.

Ебал я в рот такую демократию. 90% придурков не могут объяснить почему они голосовали за дядюшку Пу. "Едроссов герб отмечен знаком, на нём - медведь стоящий раком".

Нас ебут - а мы крепчаем.

Что они скажут когда Пу грохнут и устроят очередную войнушку, попутно повыселив неплательщиков из приватизированных квартир... А к тому идёт, я имею в виду выселение. Боюсь что будет покруче чем в Пиндустане в 29-33гг. В стране имеется сто миллионов лишних людей, и надо что-то делать.

Я отказываюсь быть членом такого человечества.

[miko2d]

Boroda: I didn't see that you didn't realize that I wrote that I hate this democracy.

 I did. That's why I called you ingorant and suggested reading that book - which is now available in german as well.

 It's not this or that democracy that is bound to end in collapse to barbarism or tyrany. It's this kind of democracy. Read the book, you will not be sorry.
 I think we are talking about the same one, though it does not have mathematical calculations but logical proofs.

 And the nature of the populaos is not the issue. Ignorant people were not a problem or detriment to growth in free societies.
 At the same time socialism is theoretically impossible even when every voter is a smart, educated and honest.
 Economic decay of socialist society is assured by impossibility of economic calculation in the abcense of pribvate property.

 Political and social desintegration is caused by high time preference of democratic (publicly-owned) government compared to alternatives.

 You are lashing at the wrong causes. Read the book, seriously.

 miko

[Boroda]

My German is even worse then my English, only "Йа, йа, фольксвагенштангенциркуль! Дас ист фантастишь!"....
 

I will read it when I'll see Russian translation. I have read the summary in "CompuTerra" weekly.

I am simply too frustrated by this electional crap now

Please, beware, by doubting the allmighty "democracy" you can easily become a "persona non grata"... Seriously. Each time you don't post for a day or two I am afraid they have come for you. I know I am paranoid

[BlckMgk]

I think majority really needs to be redefined.

I say make it 75% to be a majority.. because 51% still seems pretty darn close to Half..

[miko2d]

Boroda: Please, beware, by doubting the allmighty "democracy" you can easily become a "persona non grata"... Seriously. Each time you don't post for a day or two I am afraid they have come for you. I know I am paranoid

 You have to understand the metods used to build socialism here are very different than those used by bolshevics in 1917.

 Russians were forced in kicking and screaming.

 American way is slower but much more assured. They do not have to arrest me. I am not saying anything that was not popular and commonly accepted 100 years ago. They just have to keep doing what they always did - ignoring my vote (with 5-10% of the country being libertarian, what representation in Congress do we have? Right, 0%. Well, one guy is libertarian - Ron Paul, (R) Texas.)
 It's all described in the book. The majority of tax receivers has voting power over the minority of tax-payers like me. Jailing us would be generally counter-productive - better exploit us and strengthen their power even more with our extorted taxes.

 Of course there is always a chance some government bureacrat will need me to fill his arrest quota, like they do with "child molesters", etc...

 miko

[DmdNexus]

Originally posted by AWMac
Wonder how the "Pucker Factor" is in Taiwan nowadays....  

Pretty high because for the last month China has been deploying additional troops in to the region under the pretext of conducting military exercises.

If the Taiwan referendum goes through... China will invade... best estimates... China won't wait even a day... in any case, China can pick and choose the time.

The majority of the fighting will be over in 14 hours.

The US won't get involved militarily - there will be condemnation of the act... but US will not vote for sanctions at the U.N.

Mainland China will win this conflict, the future of US relations hinges on the US being on the mainland's side - it has no choice.

Prices for electronic goods will sky rocket, tech stocks will blip... hard to say what the economic represcussions will be.

[lord dolf vader]

taiwan has nukes.

this is a pointless discussion.

[miko2d]

DmdNexus: If the Taiwan referendum goes through... China will invade... best estimates... China won't wait even a day... in any case, China can pick and choose the time.

The majority of the fighting will be over in 14 hours.

 Last time China invaded Vietnam - in 1979 - it got it's bellybutton handed over to it on a platter. I would not bet on China.

 The specifics of chinese infrastructure (most importantly dams) and population distribution are such that a few well-placed missiles can insure death from starvation of a hundred million Chinese.

 China would have hard time defeating taiwan in out-and-out war. Taiwan could sink an invasion fleet by antiship missles. Missles are cheap, plentifull and effective. The ships cannot dodge. How many of them would one need to transport a few hundrd thousand troops?
 I doubt Taiwan has nukes but who knows? Thay can certainly have dirty bombs, bio and chem weapons and threaten to use them in case of invasion.

 If chinese could, would have invaded long time ago and US would have been impotent to interfere.
 US military knows very well that chinese could get rid of our fleets, planes and submarines in the region by conventional weapons or underwater nukes. Would US governement initiate nuclear exchange because of Taiwan? Never.

 So even with out permission they cannot defeat Taiwan militarily without losing a major chunk of China itself. They actually need our cooperation to get Taiwan without bloodshed - and are buying our cooperation.

 US had economic handle on China, not military one, now the table are being turned.

 miko

[ra]

The majority of the fighting will be over in 14 hours.

Invading Taiwan wouldn't be that easy, there's the small matter of transporting the People's Army 100 miles across the sea.  In an age of cruise missiles and spy satellites, that isn't easy.  But China will reclaim Taiwan soon enough.  The Taiwanese better hope the Chinese government has morphed into something less dictatorial by then.