Author Topic: Too Funny! France and Germany are upset  (Read 6525 times)

Offline Ping

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2003, 08:00:50 AM »
Just heard a vague report that the list was put on the Pentagons web site just hours before Bush called France, Russia, and Germany to ask them to forgive The Iraqi debt.
 If true thats Hillarious :D . Fantastic timing wouldn't you say?
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline SLO

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2003, 08:28:42 AM »
Bush is making so many new friends


sad:confused:

Offline miko2d

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2003, 09:49:29 AM »
Dago: Our drug administration is not without faults, but funny that we lead the world in producing life saving drugs, drugs that have been tested and deemed safe.

 You confuse "because of" and "despite of". Yes, our drug industry has not been killed yet but many people needlessly suffered and died.

Consider the alternative, untested drugs, with unknown side effects, unknown incompatibilities.  At least I feel reasonable safe when prescribed a drug that its use is safe and it actually will help cure me.

 I did consider the alternative. There is a difference between licensing and certification. I would look for a label on a medicine saying "Certified by the FDA" - or any private accreditation institution like Consumer Union, AMA or Underwriters Laboratories or maybe a foreign equivalent. Or maybe I have three months to live and do not care much about side-effects that take 10 years to verify.
 Do you know how much faster would a drug approval go and how much safer the drugs would be if dying people were allowed to use the drugs still in testing? How much additional data would be accumulated to benefit those of us who would wait?
 Do you know how many people needlessly died because Bayer could not advertise aspirin (which was in use for over 100 years) as heping prevent death after heart attacks?
 It was a common knowlege in medical community, but untill the few years have passed, they could not even claim that with "(Not verified by FDA)" disclaimer.

 Do you know how many people are dying from the rear deseases because due to FDA restrictions it is not possible to produce a drug unless it is used by a huge market? 10-year testing process is so ecpensive that unless you have millions of patients, it does not pay to bother? So all companies produce dozens of versions of redundant headache medicines but none for rare kinds of cancers, etc.
 Maybe those few thousand people dying from them would be willing to use less tested medicine - and serve as test subjects in the process.
 Maybe people would prefer cheaper and less safe drug to no drug at all?

 But we are denied free choice. Informed willing adults cannot perform a transaction because it offends sensibilities of a third-party socialist bisybody like you who "knows better what we need".
 
I wish you could, I would love to hear how you feel about Salmonella.   I have had it, its not alot of fun. Since passing laws regarding such things as milk pastureization, illnesses and deaths attributable to food poisoning have dropped dramatically, darned that damned government interference.

 You are an ignorant. You see obvious side-effect but miss many others. People drank raw milk for millenia. I drank raw milk for 25 years in Soviet Union - not the most sanitary of places - and have never even heard of anyone getting salmonella.
 My whole family - including my 2-year old, has been drinking raw milk for over half a year now. I get if from a farm 150 miles from where I live and it holds 2 weeks in a refrigerator.
 The government regulations actually make it more dangerous for me because I would rather buy fresh milk every day than risk 2-week old milk.

 There were no deadly epidemics before 1930 when the laws were enacted. Since the laws were pushed through by political lobbies, enormous progress occured in technology - every farm now has cooling equipment, access to refrigerate transportation, desinfecting and testing methods, etc. Milk was safe before and is safer now.

 Maybe you've got your salmonella because your immune system is not up to the task - because of the government-approved crap you are eating that has essential nutrients and coenzymes destroyed?

 Just how did you get that salmonella? Isn't it supposed to be impossible - or rather illegal - for a law-abiding serf like you? Did you eat some non-approved food? You should turn yourself in to DHS or CDC for punishment, you salmonella-getting traitor. :)

Again, these statements just help me believe you would be happier elsewhere, somewhere without pesky regualtion designed to safeguard your health.

 You believe that because you are not very smart and do not understand what I am saying. I - personally - am doing OK. I can see the fallacy of the government labels and disregard them. I can find what is good for me and get it - food, medicine, etc. Government makes it harder for me but I can do it here - despite the governmenmt - probably easier than anywhere else. It's the dumb and poor people who you are trying to protect that suffer most from junk food and restrictions on private businesses.

Yup, all our fault, all ours.  The charities worked so well under the Taliban, oh, except for those 2 girls imprisoned for their work.

 You are ignorant again. I've read their interview. They admitted violating the agreement with government and performng actions they promised not to. They tried to convert muslims into christianity which is forbidden by Koran.
 I do not consider such people "humanitarian helpers". They are missionaries and they should be ready to die for spreading their beliefs. And those two were ready.
  I do not care which religious nut gets himself killed - christian shoving a Bible down peope's throats or a mullah doing the same with a Koran.

 People who actually provided humanitarian help - medicine, edication, food, clothes - to the afghanis were not molested by Taliban.
 Those real humanitarians were mad as hell at those two scoundrels - for jeopardising legitimate charities by using humanitarian help as a cover for their illegal religious prpoaganda.

do it about something causing real problems, not how you can't buy "fresh" milk.

 Could I buy a donor organ? What? I can't? Because it offends your sensibilities? You woudl rather allow a prospective donor to stay poor and prospective recepient to die so youc an feel better? OK.

Maybe about religious intolerance in other countries,

 How do you know I don't? This board is promarily dadicated to US politics and I am talking about US politics here. I talk about other topics in thne appropraite forums.

maybe about tribes in Africa hacking off limbs off of other tribes members, maybe about fanatical muslims killing people for not following Islam.

 Our government should stop supporting those regimes, I've always said that.

No, you worry about that great Satan Bush.

 He has much more effect on my life than some guy in Africa, so it's only natural that my concern about him has priority.

 miko
« Last Edit: December 11, 2003, 11:12:47 AM by miko2d »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2003, 10:14:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Duedel
uhm ur calling the USA a "socialist welfare state"?


He calls me a communist.. :)

Offline kappa

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2003, 10:53:31 AM »
lol Damn Miko2d...  that was a good read..

k
AoM
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Offline Martlet

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2003, 10:58:12 AM »
I love watching this.  miko posts something,  then ravells and kappa chime in telling him how smart he is.  Every time.  It reminds me of those old WB cartoons.

"huh spike?  can we?  huh?  huh?  Can I say it next?"

Offline kappa

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2003, 11:02:52 AM »
lol then martlet chimes in w/ something rediculous that no one really cares to read... sad sad sad.. 8(   lmao

k
AoM
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Offline miko2d

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2003, 11:08:56 AM »
"Communism" is just a kind of a "socialism" also known as "collectivism".

 Socialist state is when a governmental controls production and distribution while claiming to be acting in the interest of the population and appealing to the population for support.

 Outright ownership of the production factors by the state is communism.

 When the nominal ownership of the production factors is reserved to the private individuals but the actual control is accomplished by the state through laws, regulations and government spending, that's socialism or fascism. Property is labeled as private but is actually owned by the government to a considerable degree.

 In the absence of private property, the economic calcualtion is impossible and the fully socialist society not viable. The reason for that is that market prices - which are the way information is transmitted - cannot exist.
 There is no "third way" between free market and socialism. Any intermediate state is unstable and socialism increases unless it is being decreased. The reason for that is the government intervention always causes the results undesirable from the perspective of the initiators of that intervention and necessitates more and ever-expanding interventions to deal with the consequenses untill all economy is socialist.
 Those two theorems are major foundations of the Austrian (neo-classical) school of economics.

 I do claim that US society is substantially - mostly socialist, while retaining some vestiges of the free-market system.

 Free market is so efficient that even tiny proportion of it can produce a lot of wealth. For instance, the tiny (about 1 acre) private parsels of soviet pesants were 40 times more productive than collective farms and provided significant part - about half - of the food production in the Soviet Union.

 - The government spending on all levels is over 50% of the national spending. So we have half socialist right there.

 - Considerable amounts of assets are owned by the governments - in case of federal government in direct contradiction to the Constitution.

 - Regulations and restrictions of property rights severely limit the ownership and use of the property that nominally reminds in private posession.

 That is impossible to calculate mathematically but I'd say that US is about 10% free-market and 90% socialist and that 10% could be taken away any time.

 miko

Offline ravells

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2003, 11:34:15 AM »
Well....twice Martlett.

On each occasion it was because someone who was losing the argument with miko resorted to the 'if you don't like it here go back to Russia' reply.

I guess that sort of response just gets me riled up a little.

I've had my disagreements with miko in the past (particularly his view of no government intervention in business stance).

Ravs

Offline miko2d

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2003, 12:06:09 PM »
ravells: I guess that sort of response just gets me riled up a little.

 Why bother reading? Do you expect to see an iota of content in those posts?


I've had my disagreements with miko in the past (particularly his view of no government intervention in business stance).

 I'd love for you to present a clear cut example of a government economic intervention that you consider justified I would try to respectfully blow it up.
 It would be free education for at least one of us and the public as well.

 
 miko

Offline fd ski

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2003, 12:47:51 PM »
Miko,

banning of child labor

Offline ravells

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2003, 12:53:29 PM »
Miko - posted a new thread with your name on it.

En-garde! :)

Ravs

Offline miko2d

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2003, 01:54:01 PM »
fd ski: banning of child labor

 In modern times - prevents idle teenagers from contributing to economy, earning some money and aquiring valuable work habits instead of getting in trouble.

 In early capitalist times - prevented families desperate enough (due to natural pre-existing scarcity) to send children to work from the best option they had, causing them to fall back to even worse option (starvation, back-breaking long-hours outdoor field work, crime, prostitution, begging).
 Benefited some unionised workers by raising their wages at the expense of consumers who had fewer and more expensive products - thus lowering everybody's real wages.

 As capital per worker accumulated and productivity/production increased, causing the corresponding increase in real labor wages, family wealth increased and the supply of child labor dried up naturally. The ban on it slowed down that process and hurt those it was supposedely ment to help.
 Of course the increase in wealth and welfare was mis-attributed to intentional actions of people - labor policies, etc. while it was a purely natural process of capital accumulation developing despite such policies.

 Care to address each of those points with your counter-arguments?


 miko

Offline DmdNexus

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2003, 02:05:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
fd ski: banning of child labor

 In modern times - prevents idle teenagers from contributing to economy, earning some money and aquiring valuable work habits instead of getting in trouble.

 miko



And the Nazi's used child labor to polish the inside of artilery barrels - because they have small hands.

And in India carpet makers use childred because they have small and nimble hands able to weave the thread through the looms.

Offline fd ski

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Too Funny! France and Germany are upset
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2003, 02:49:21 PM »

 In modern times - prevents idle teenagers from contributing to economy, earning some money and aquiring valuable work habits instead of getting in trouble.


While I can agree with valuable work habit, earning some money is questionable :)

Contributing to economy ?
Large number of children entering the labor market at age of 5 would cause unemplomeny to sore. How even if you would argue that "contribution to the economy" might be indefinite, I'm sure you'd agree that law of diminishing returns also applies to same ?

Getting into trouble is a whole separate issue :)


In early capitalist times - prevented families desperate enough (due to natural pre-existing scarcity) to send children to work from the best option they had, causing them to fall back to even worse option (starvation, back-breaking long-hours outdoor field work, crime, prostitution, begging).
 Benefited some unionised workers by raising their wages at the expense of consumers who had fewer and more expensive products - thus lowering everybody's real wages.


Moralist or union plot - i agree with reasons.



 As capital per worker accumulated and productivity/production increased, causing the corresponding increase in real labor wages, family wealth increased and the supply of child labor dried up naturally. The ban on it slowed down that process and hurt those it was supposedely ment to help.
 Of course the increase in wealth and welfare was mis-attributed to intentional actions of people - labor policies, etc. while it was a purely natural process of capital accumulation developing despite such policies.


Your contention that child labor would have ended by itself, while in economic principal correct has yet to be proven in practice.

While I agree with some of your free-market ideas, you are working on the assumption that markets are fully self-correcting. I find that optimistic, or should I say, idealistic.
It is based on the assumption that all people think in the rational "profit maximization" fashion, this isn't always a case, numberous studies proved that people are not always clearly profit oriented.

You also contend that free-markets will force change due to increasing effectiveness of changed business vs one that doesn't accept it - consequently going out of business. I think it can be said that most people avoid change best they can. Same applies to businesses.

Did banning of child labor lower real wages of all  ? I think you may be right. However, didn't it also contribute to overall better trained work force couple decades later ?
Weak child cannot fully compete in physical and mental levels with an adult, and in free market economy it would be reflected in their pay. I'm sure you'd say that businesses would rather pay for more capable adult, however in practice I find that anything walking on two feet will do. This would cause labor markets to shift to ever younger age, while leaving those most capable unemployed - thus brining down the price of thier labor till equalibrium was found. As such everyone's real wages also suffer by child labor.

Whole moral discussion on this issue could be left to those who care for those things :)

By the same token, do you think that slavery would have gone away on its own ?