Author Topic: Spitfire in the CT?  (Read 4102 times)

Offline Toad

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2003, 01:30:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
Fact is, whenever Spits are enabled, they are practically the only plane flown by the Allies.  Makes for a very dull CT.

- oldman


But Axis pilots don't fly the plane that gives them the best overall package in any given setup?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2003, 01:35:19 PM »
What was that Magee?

Creeeeeeeek Creeeeeeeeek Creeeeeeeeek.....

Huh? Nothin but the crickets.


Crumpp

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Offline scJazz

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2003, 02:16:55 PM »
What is the overall best package for Axis? Take this setup for instance... I can use a 109F but the guns are so weak that killing anything takes forever. Still I can turn with a Hurri if I'm at corner speed. Could use the 190A5 at least then I can kill something but now I have to play BnZ games. Could use the C202 can't turn with Hurri's now at least I can outrun em but the guns, being gratuitous calling them guns more like over powered slingshots, leave more than a little to be desired.

Spitfires are a good package for firepower, manuverability, speed, and acceleration. This is why Allies use them. Still don't mind having them around and would rather have them here instead of this totally screwed plane set.

Offline Toad

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2003, 02:41:12 PM »
In any given setup, there's one or two planes on either side that are considered "the best package".

The intimation is that only the Allies would have the dweebery to fly the "best package" while manly men fly something less than the "best package".

Sounds pretty phony to me. Some guys will take the "lesser" planes out because they seek the challenge. Most, however, take what they think they'll have the most success with in combat. The CT is just like the MA in that respect and it applies to both "sides".

IMO.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline LtMagee

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2003, 02:57:31 PM »
I see where I may have made my mistake. Sorry :eek:

III. Italy

Between 1 and 3 December, the ground echelon moved from Soliman to the staging area at Bizerte where it bivouacked until 25 December at which time it embarked on LST’s for Italy. While in Bizerte re-equipment was carried out, and vehicles were repaired.

Meanwhile, on 9 November Lt. Colonel Baseler led the pilots and the air echelon in a move via transports to the new base at Foggia Main. Weather interrupted the schedule so that it was not until the afternoon of 11 December that this phase of the move was successfully completed.

It was soon discovered that Italy is no more immune to winter rains than North Africa and the field at Foggia Main was a semi-quagmire. But this condition was of no aid in digging foxholes for, a few inches beneath the mud was a layer of rock that defied penetration. To add to the disconcertion the field was overcrowded with all types of allied aircraft.

On 14 December, 325th Fighter Group flew its first Italian mission which was also it s first operational mission with P-47s  The mission – an uneventful one – was escort for four groups of B-17s returning from a raid on the Kalamaki Airdrome, Athens, Greece. Operations continued whenever weather permitted.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2003, 03:05:30 PM by LtMagee »

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2003, 03:08:01 PM »
Both sides will take what they believe to be the best fighter.  I think that is what scJazz is saying.  Allies just have it all in one plane where as Axis have to chose their plane and fly it to it's strengths more carefully.  Both sides had great planes and only the Allies superior numbers won.  Besides it is the pilot that makes the difference.

This being said......
The allies should get their Historical plane line up's.  Any gross imbalance should be corrected with a FM adjustment NOT exclusion of a plane from it's proper theater IMO.

Crumpp

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Offline Arlo

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2003, 03:42:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Any gross imbalance should be corrected with a FM adjustment NOT exclusion of a plane from it's proper theater IMO.



What? :eek: Any imbalance should be "corrected" with a flight model adjustment?!

I'm glad you're against aircraft model exclusion and all but adjusting an aircraft's flight model in AH for the sake of balancing the field doesn't seem like a rational solution. That would just lead to all of us flying Spitfires that look different.

Offline Squire

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2003, 03:45:13 PM »
There were no MC205s in the Tunisian campaign either. 1st action was during the invasion of Sicily in July 1943.

The best USAAF (US built) fighter there was the P-38F/G, which we dont have. That leaves the Spitfire (and Seafire) as the only other "correct" air superiority fighter for the allies in that setup. The P-40 and Hurricane were largely relegated to ground attack missions by this time, although they still did some air to air actions of course.
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Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2003, 04:42:28 PM »
No
Arlo it wouldn't.  You seem to think I am for changing a FM into something it wasn't.  I am not.  IF a plane doesn't perform to its Historic levels then it's FM should be adjusted accordingly.  

Example: (Taken from COMBAT LEGENDS: FW-190 by Peter Cayhill - a noted Spitfire Historian)

According to the RAF test flights of a 190A3 the 190 was rated as more manuverable than the Spit 9 and "hopelessly outclassed the Spit V".  Why?

It could change direction faster (roll rate), accellerate faster, and with its superior zoom climb turn its speed to altitude faster than the Spit 9.  
The Spit 9 was faster in level flight at some altitudes, could outclimb the 190 above 14000 feet and outturn the 190 at all speeds and altitudes.  Most prominantly to the left.  In turns to the right the 190's turn circle was tighter.  
If a spit driver tried to follow a 190 up at its best climb speed of 220 mph IAS It would soon be left behind.  HOWEVER if the Spit pilot backed off and climbed at his best climb speed of160 mph IAS then he would soon end up above the 190.

IF under AH FM the Spit just runs circles around a 190A5 then most likely the Spits FM is needing tweaking somewhere.  I believe spits had horrible roll rates.  Didn't they attempt to clip the wings to improve it?  Maybe the 190's need to roll faster and not tip stall as quickly?? I don't know NOR am I advocating at this time a FM change for any AC.  
I am saying lets fix the problem.  Lets not cover it up with false plane substitutions that pork immersion for the scenario.  Warfare tends to gravitate towards balance until one sides will to resist collapses.  If it's not "balanced" somehow, it's over quickly.

Give the Allies the Spit IF it was present in the Theater.

Crumpp
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Offline Kweassa

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2003, 04:42:40 PM »
Nyup nyup..

 These debates are getting tiresome.
 Just give them the Spit5 and say adios to the '44 P-47D-11.

Offline Arlo

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2003, 06:15:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
No
Arlo it wouldn't.  You seem to think I am for changing a FM into something it wasn't.  I am not.  IF a plane doesn't perform to its Historic levels then it's FM should be adjusted accordingly.  



Which has actually has absolutely nothing to do with CT arena balance and more to do with crusades and agendas that various factions of AH players have to improve their favorite planes or clip the wings of their most hated adversaries.

Why not just learn the strengths of one's own plane, the weaknesses of your opponents, utilize tactics that make up for percieved imbalances and leave the technical whining to the A&V forum?

Getting things "fixed" to suit your own preferences won't fix the CT anymore than staff "balancing acts" will. Just put the planes that fought each other in their settings and let the players work out how to do their best without having to have their hands held or their opponents hands tied. :D

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2003, 06:51:10 PM »
Who said ANYTHING about agenda's to get some favourite plane remodeled??  

HOW is asking the Spitfire to included in CT scenario's it was actually in "fixing" things on my own agenda??  Might make a good plot for "AH Conspiracy Theory"!

PASS THAT PIPE, SON!  YOU'VE SMOKED TOO MUCH!

IF you put your quote back into the context it was taken from you will read on that I am in fact NOT advocating changing ANY FM.  

ALL I am saying is that IF the spit is such an unbalancing plane then an open mind should be kept and the problem solved.  I don't have the answer and I personally don't think it is all that unbalancing.   HENCE, being an AXIS pilot I am asking for it back.

Keeping it out of scenario's it was Historically included in is not the answer.  

Arlo,  use that high powered perception to actually percieve the argument.

:aok

Crumpp
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Offline Arlo

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2003, 07:24:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp [/COLOR]
HOW is asking the Spitfire to included in CT scenario's it was actually in "fixing" things on my own agenda??  Might make a good plot for "AH Conspiracy Theory"!

PASS THAT PIPE, SON!  YOU'VE SMOKED TOO MUCH!

IF you put your quote back into the context it was taken from you will read on that I am in fact NOT advocating changing ANY FM.  

ALL I am saying is that IF the spit is such an unbalancing plane then an open mind should be kept and the problem solved.  I don't have the answer and I personally don't think it is all that unbalancing.   HENCE, being an AXIS pilot I am asking for it back.

Keeping it out of scenario's it was Historically included in is not the answer.  

Arlo,  use that high powered perception to actually percieve the argument.

:aok

Crumpp
StaffleKaptain, 10 (Sturm) / JG3


Whoa. All this defensive sensitivity is just to say that all that extra 190 vs. Spit porkage flightmodel irrefutable proof filler was just a mere preface to you saying you agree with me about agreeing with you that we should just fly the fuggin planes that were supposedly participants in the settings that are supposedly presenting a specific theater from WWII and wasn't really advocating any sort of flight model fixing thereby spilling over any ongoing endless technical argument in the A&V forum over here into the CT forum in hopes that if HTC is bombarded with enough irrefutable technical data from one's own faction that that faction will somehow get their way and fix the game making it a better experience for all. (Whew ... deep breath)

Very good.

Carry on. :D

Just leave out the errata next time.

Thanks.

:aok :lol :cool:  (insert no offense smiley face)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2003, 08:18:03 PM »
:lol


Read the post next time!  Whew!;)

BTW It's not irrefutable proof.  That comes in in the form of Test Flight graphs from multiple test flights under controlled conditions.

Pilot testimony is far from exact proof.

On a another note:

Noticed you troll the NG quite a bit?  Like your in almost every thread........Ever think of looking in the Personals, getting out of that chair, and finding a life??  I mean really, Arlo, you spend way too much time in the BB for a game.  Hope your on the HTC payroll!!   Call me I'll give you my Ex-wife's number.....

Crumpp
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:p

Offline scJazz

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Spitfire in the CT?
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2003, 08:46:38 PM »
Too all...

The Spitfire MK V or Seafire belongs in this scenario. The freakin P47 bloody well does not. Including P47s and removing Spits in the sake of balance is complete garbage. I for one would love to have the damn Spits around since they fall apart much more easily than the stinking Hurricane's. At the very least I'd like to have a normal CT setup where one side gets the fastest planes and the other gets the best turners. Right now the Allies have...

Best Bomber
Fastest Plane
Best JABO
Best Turning Plane
Best Gun Packages (damn well near every aircraft, on further thought EVERY aircraft)


Axis has... well nothing really, oh wait I thought of something!!! Our planes can out accelerate 2 of your 4 planes. I can still fly and succeed in catching my limit of Allied AC but it gets pretty dull. Launch 25 miles behind lines and grab to 15 to 20K. Dive down on Allied aircraft not paying attention and blast em. Repeat as long as fuel and ammo hold up. Leave moment that I even vaguely approximate Co-E.

Crumpp has made a point saying that there MIGHT be something screwy with the Spitfire's FM. Fairly reasonable thought given the amount of data available in the Aircraft and Vehicles Forum. On the other hand it might just be the fact that we have the 190A5 not the 190A3.

Arlo don't flame me on this, or do I don't really care, but seriously you do seem to be fairly combatative. I understand that, I am as well, mostly directed toward our esteemed colleagues the CT Moderators. Do try to chill. Crumpp said in the post that made you go off that he wants Spits around and then questioned the FM for the Spits based on objective data. After that you went and slammed him for things he didn't say. Read, Ponder, Respond.