This is kinda confusing.

[Toad]

Originally posted by AKIron
We'll defeat North Korea pretty much the same way we defeated the Soviet Union.

They're already on the ropes. The country is bankrupt, the people are starving, they've got a huge refugee problem on the NK/China border. In short, they're SOL.

[Toad]

They're pointless if the country does not want to cooperate. Libya is the case in point. Their nuke program wasn't stopped by UN inspections. In fact, it was going on despite inspections. Possibly the inspections make it somewhat more difficult, but it certainly doesn't prevent it.


Well, the NK's are threatening to use their WMD unless the US gives them all the oil and food they want. So they're already "projecting military power".

Your solution is? What? Appeasement? Maybe just Austria? A bit of Czechoslovakia or maybe all of it?

I'm betting your solution is for the US to give NK what it wants?

Because it's solely a US problem, right? This is all our fault? We started the Korean War and covered that fact up? So we have to fix it?

Hey, I've got an idea! Why doesn't NORWAY give NK everything Kim Jong Il desires for the next ten years. They it can be......  FRANCE'S turn!

[Mini D]

Originally posted by GScholz
I don't know the solution. What is your solution? Invasion?

Still getting you that it worked?

We went after the Talliban in Afghanistan because they were identified as being directly responsible for 9/11.  But that really isn't much of a show of force given Afghanistan's poor infrastructure at the time and the Talliban's incapability of defending itself by any means other than hiding.  We were picking on a war ravaged people with the biggest military in the world.

Afghanistan was a response, but an example was still needed.  To find a country that openly sponsored terrorism (funding palestinian suicide bombers) and celebrated the 9/11 disaster AS WELL AS HAVING A FULLY "CAPABLE" MILITARY.  We rolled right over them despite world oppinion, despite debates about validity of "wmd", despite tough talk from Saddam, despite everything.  We simply rolled in and kicked ass... completely eliminating a government that was by everyone's admission a psuedo evil dictatorship.

The world is on notice.  There are things that simply will not be "tollerated" any longer.  No more idly sitting by while being poked with a stick.  No more overlooking things to better relations.  There's simply a new policy:  Behave.

Now all we have to do is figure out how to make that work in Africa.  Though... I give that one a "not likely" and a half.

MiniD

[Rude]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Once again Toad, give context to his statements.

And give context to the question.  Does this reconcile the Bush administration lies to the citizens of the US, their representitives and to the representitives of the nations of the world?

The majority of Americans understand that it's not a perfect world....intel is not perfect and WMD's not found within your timeframe does not mean they did not or still do exist. The second term of Bush will prove this out.

BTW.....you always seem so bothered by the US and not so by Iraq, Libya, NK, etc.

I think you're just a left wing apologists for bad folks and you apparently have an innate dislike for the US and her president. You whine alot.

Best to just realize you don't have jack to say about any of it....once again, we will do what is in the best interest of the US, not Canada or Europe.

This hey let's all be pals attitude of the 90's is what brought all of this to a head in the first place....had we dealt effectively with Osama early on, terrorism in it's current form would have been a non-factor.

[Rude]

Originally posted by GScholz
I don't know the solution. What is your solution? Invasion?

You spew sharp criticism yet offer no solution...as if you would be qualified in the first place.

Kinda typical.

[Mini D]

Originally posted by GScholz
Mini D, what has retaliation for 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq got to do with nuclear weapons and the problem of inspecting NPT members?

Oh... I'm sorry... is that all this thread was about?

Hehehe... I think it's funny the way you manage to ignore so much in an effort to say so little.

MiniD

[lazs2]

we did it and do it because it is best for us.   you can join us or sit back and whine and be jealous.  

Like I said when it started... if nothing else it will make millions of lives better and.... be a great example for the remaining despots around the world.... gold toilet seats or.... spider holes full of their own excrement.

Make it as complex as you want but it really is that simple ...  My 468" motor likes premium and I like $1.65 a gallon for the good stuff.  

Maybe NK will get the hint and maybe it won't... maybe the UN will get on board and maybe it won't but... The U.S. and possibly GB will take care of the problem..

It will get solved and the pasty little whiny liberals and jealous U.S. envy group will get on here and tell us how it didn't get solved bloodlessly or with 100% honesty and goodness.  

lazs

[Rude]

Originally posted by Mini D
Still getting you that it worked?

We went after the Talliban in Afghanistan because they were identified as being directly responsible for 9/11.  But that really isn't much of a show of force given Afghanistan's poor infrastructure at the time and the Talliban's incapability of defending itself by any means other than hiding.  We were picking on a war ravaged people with the biggest military in the world.

Afghanistan was a response, but an example was still needed.  To find a country that openly sponsored terrorism (funding palestinian suicide bombers) and celebrated the 9/11 disaster AS WELL AS HAVING A FULLY "CAPABLE" MILITARY.  We rolled right over them despite world oppinion, despite debates about validity of "wmd", despite tough talk from Saddam, despite everything.  We simply rolled in and kicked ass... completely eliminating a government that was by everyone's admission a psuedo evil dictatorship.

The world is on notice.  There are things that simply will not be "tollerated" any longer.  No more idly sitting by while being poked with a stick.  No more overlooking things to better relations.  There's simply a new policy:  Behave.

Now all we have to do is figure out how to make that work in Africa.  Though... I give that one a "not likely" and a half.

MiniD

I believe that some of the best to come out of 9/11 is the truth regarding just who are and are not our real friends.....it's a round world, a fact that many of them will soon realize.

[Nakhui]

Originally posted by Toad
Yes, it takes change to get people to think outside the box.

Don't have much time for a cogent response... gotta get some work done today.

If appeasement with NK was what you got from what I said, that's not what I meant.

I suspect there is some kind of "ology" which studies diplomatic negotiations and and systems for analyzing repsonses and counter responses.... just like econmics which uses mathematics and models to help decision makers determine what decisions to make - perhaps what I'm searcing for is called Politcal Science. I don't know... I've never studied it.

In any case, we can all agree, the NK situation seems to be on the road to being resolved. Thus, the actions taken must have been the right one - credit is due to US policy and also I think China which acted as the 3rd party negotiator. China has a bigger security interest being that it is NK neighbor!

To one of my original points... IMO, did Bush consider that Iran, Lybya and NK would be influenced by the results of the Iraqi war?

I could fathom that there must have been some thought that it would.

And therefor even if WMD are not found in Iraq, the reprecussions not only changed Iraq but also the situations with the issues with these other "miscreant" nations.

And back to my original thoughts...

Is it possible that Bush and his analysts really think there were WMD because of how they analized their intelligence... and now this analysis or the intel itself may be in error.... and just got lucky that their actions would have this affect.

Or is it possible Bush knew there were no WMD, however, in his analysis he calculated that the results would out way the deceit...

ok sure this is tin hat talk... I admit that! I'm raising my hand... look pointing to the tinhat on my head.

Let me offer another example... related to the conduct of the Bush Administration.

Start with the premise that the goal is to gather intell on the terrorists, in order, to find, disarm, dismantle, and destroy terrorists operating against the US. This is a prime directive for the President.

To do this, certain measures need to be taken, that when vetted with lawyers... are possibilly unconstitutional.

Any lawyer will tell you, that arrestting an American on American soil, that it would be unconstitutional to hold that American with out due process, with out access to a lawyer, etc...

The situation that has been going on for the past two years... and has been making it's way through the courts.

Surely the Bush administration vetted this action with their counsel, and their counsel being bright as they are offered up a scenario that if these people were to be classified as something else - such as "illegal combatants" that this arguement would allow the administartion some time to pursue it's goals of gathering intelligence, and it's possible the court system may even agreen and not seem them as "citizens" and they would not have rights protected by the constitution.

A calculated risk.

Which in any event, even if the court system doesn't agree, buys the Administration 1 or 2 years to interrogate and gather intelligence for their purpose of destroying terrorist networks.

And I think that's just what has happened.

And my point with this example... it is a game - not for fun, obviously... it's life and death... however, there are some rules, and then there are no rules... it's possible to play out side of the "accepted" rules for awhile... to gain an edge towards these goals... just like the steel tarrifs to gain an edge to rebuild and refit US steel industry.

then the checks and balances kick in... and it's time to play with in the rules again.

Don't get me wrong on this... I'm not saying Bush is evil or anything like that...

I'm saying... I think this is the game that HAS to be played... in order to  get done what needs to be done!

Which is to bring these rogue nations into the world community playing the rules that promote trade and world peace (as well as elimenate terrorism)

The rules are being bent on purpose because the rules aren't perfect and they do hinder the goals....

So back to my point regarding WMD and Iraq...

Is it fathomnable to think that the US secretly knew there were no WMD.. yet, decided to use WMD as a pretext to eliminate a "bad" player in the global game, and to put all the other miscreants on notice that they too could be eliminated from the game unless they started playing by the rules.

Ok.. yes it sounds like a tinfoil hat theory - just suspend your reaction of disbelief for a moment and think out side of the box.

Isn't Bush bending the rules in many other aspects by his policies to achieve... noble goals [not evil]... and support US interests?

One could build up hype, propoganda, and misinformation to make many believe Iraq had/has WMD, even though it doesn't.

When at the most secret levels of decision making - a few really know there are no longer any WMD in Iraq.

And to do this so that the end (global peace and stability) justifies the means - (ok we lied and started a war with false causes)

Who would know! There's plausable deniability!

When no WMD are found... blame it on faulty intel and faulty analysis. Doesn't matter.... the goal is achieved.

And it would seem... read the papers today...  the results... are what this.

No WMD yet found...Lybya, Iran, Iraq, and NK... (the axis of evil)... all now starting to play with in the game that the global community wants to play.

So back to your quote... which seems to appropo to what I've just said above.... it does take change to get people to think out side of the box...

There are Isalmic boxes, chinese boxes, Lybyan boxes, American Boxes... etc...

we all think in a box... and only by observing that the box has changed... do we realize we need to start thinking differently.

Such as the safety of America as a result of 9/11

There's no doubt Bush has affected a change in the world by action (legallity really doesn't matter... if it needed to be done!)... and now all other nations are thinking differently.

Is Bush a genius or did he just stumble upon this by accident?

[lazs2]

gs... yep... sometimes you have to sacrafice in order to make your country great.    Who knows how many lives each one of those dead Americans saved?  How much they added to the qauality of life of countless other Americans and people around the world?

nakahui.... for the life of me I have no idea what your point is except that no matter how it all turns out you are oppossed to it.   Everything seems to merely be a reason for you to voice your displeasure and "expose" the seamier parts of any opperation.. I think most of us realize that our country is not altogether altruistic... that is the way of the world.    Point is... what we have done and are doing is as moral as any war has ever been and does the most good for the most folks.

If you want to pretend to have some special knowledge and insight... that is fine.   but for me... it makes boring reading.   I have seen better from third rate liberal professors.

lazs

[Nakhui]

Originally posted by lazs2
for the life of me I have no idea what your point is

Laz you're putting words into my mouth that I did not say.

Please re-read my posts.

I didn't say I was opposed to US policy or how it did what it did.
I didn't say I was displeased with anything either.
I didn't say I had any special insight.
And I didn't say I was pretending to know anything.

On the contrary, I admitted from the very beginning, I'm offering speculation.

I have absolutely no proof of the speculation that I'm making.

I'm merely pointing out what I observe as patterns.

I do believe there is more to the situation than any of us could possibily know with out being involved in it.

I do think there are rules that are being bent in order to do what needs to be done, and THAT's what I'm speculating is going on.

That's not a judgement of good or bad.

My speculation is that the "thinkers" in government plan for these different scenarios... and know which rules they can bend... how far they can bend them... when to stop bending them.. etc

And that THIS is accepted practice, which is neither good or bad...

It's just how the game is played.

My question is do any of YOU see these patterns?

I'm not painting any of this in black or white... good or evil, republican vs democrat.. france vs America... none of that.

I've tried to point that out also in my comments.

[Toad]

Originally posted by GScholz
I don't know the solution. What is your solution? Invasion?

No, of course you don't have a solution. You never do.

All you ever have is criticism of those trying to find a solution.

[Toad]

More like jealous of being able to accomplish the mission despite the cost; in fact, accepting the cost of doing things that make the world a better place for everyone.

Go ahead, throw it in our faces yet again. US soldiers are dying in Iraq. Feel superior and smug.

[lazs2]

nakahui... I see nothing different in what you say than any other conspiracy theory.   You of course, call it "patterns".

you take selective information that may or may not be the truth but is most certainly..... only a very small part of the picture and then add a bunch of these seemingly related and equally spotty observations up to make up policy or "pattern".

I don't know if you are right or not.   the point is that you haven't enough information to make the broad "patterns" that you paint.   I haven't enough information to dispute you.  It doesn't exist for either of us or anyone else on these boards...there is enough other spotty info however, out there, to make entirely different "patterns" than you portray with your, as you yourself admit, info that is incomplete.

Again... in plain english... what is your point?  let us hear your conspiracy theory in it's boiled down form...  simply state it.   What is the "pattern" that you see?

lazs

[Nakhui]

Originally posted by lazs2
Let us hear your conspiracy theory in it's boiled down form...  simply state it.   What is the "pattern" that you see?

Just a second have to adjust the tuner on my foil hat... so I can receive the radio frequencies beaming from Mars.

1. I suspect the policy makers in the government anticipate and make things happen more than just react to situations. I would hope so... I would hope that the world is more ordered than it is chaotic. Yet... the planners are not perfect... and not able to anticipate everything.

That's why I bring up the "game' theory, and nations choosing options, and that the people in power are professionals who like other skilled professionals have developed metrics, analysis, and techniques for determining which options to choose... it's not just knee jerk reactions. [I know in my original post I said knee-jerk reations... rhetorical guestions]

US goals are to eliminate terrorism and nations which harbor terrorists. As well as, promote globalization of trade, open markets, and bring all nations into the global community so that the world is safe, peaceful, and prosperous.

I've heard several US presidents state this philosophy.. Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush jr - there is a common goal even between Dems and Reps.

There are nations which harbor terrorists, don't play within the accepted rules of the global community. Iraq being one of them, NK, Lybya, and Iran.

I speculate that it is accepted practice to bend the rules in order to achieve national/world goals. As an example, I offer the Steel tarrifs, the legality of declaring people as "illegal combatants" and holding them with out due process,

even...

and here this is when I get to wear the big tinfoil hat with the propellar on top...

perhaps fabricating WMD to effect change in the world...

dramatic change - change the box... change the thinking...

Is it possible?

What is the evidence to lead us here?

Where are the WMD in Iraq?

If they are found... alright... screw my theory! I agree it's a tinfoil hat conspiracy!

If they are not found... never found... and it turns out, irrefutably, really did not exist.

How could Bush - no.. How could the intelligence and Washingon analists make such a big mistake?

Or was it a mistake? Could this just be bending of the rules... to make a dramatic change in the world? To achieve the goals?

The US has a history of changing regimes in nations - covertly.. illegally... do I need to point out the CIA operations in Laos, Iran, Columbia, Chile, El Salvador? I'm sure there more!

Is it colonialism? No... it's a globalization policy. These activies are done out side of the rules... as some changes have to be!

Could it be a government run amuck... just running around chaotically doing evil deeds? That's a conspiracy theory!

I'm more inclined to believe the world is moving towards order with a purpose - rather then deteriorating into chaos and selfish purposes.

Not a Big Brother type order of hate and control.

More working to become neighbors... working together... countries with out borders... (NAFTA... EU...WTO, Globalization etc)

Just like a Californian has a common bond with a New Yorker as an American... so will some day a Chinese man may have a bond with a Mexican, or a Canandian...like they were next door neighbors... freely exchanging products, ideas, and good will.

The totalitarians have to go... the closed markets have to be opened... the means to get there is to remove the players from the game who aren't willing to play by the rules.