Author Topic: Most Surprising Fighter Fact? (Read 12891 times)

GScholz · « **Reply #75 on:** January 07, 2004, 02:35:26 AM »

Ok Widewing so we have these Germans who claim they flew to NY and back in 1943. And then we have people like you who say they didn't because " Every attempt was discovered by radar or the standing patrols". What "standing patrols"? What would have stopped them? The US didn't have any operational night fighters in 1943. Some US pilots flew British night fighters in England, but the first US night fighters didn't become operational until 1944.

Halo, you were actually right by mistake

, a single Ju390 became operational with the KG 200 unit, which was used for top-secret missions (long range reconnaissance using captured allied planes and insertions of spies etc.), so the Ju390 was actually operational during WWII.

GScholz · « **Reply #76 on:** January 07, 2004, 03:05:03 AM »

An interresting quote from Harald Fäth's "Geheime Kommandosache S III Jonastal und die Siegeswaffenproduktion":

"A few weeks ago, a former WWII German soldier told me he saw some fellow Germans board a plane full of extra fuel, fly to New York, circle Manhattan and came immediately back to Germany.
When he ask his “Kameraden” so he told me, they answered that this was only a test flight to next go and drop an atom bomb on New York….

I looked into this and found out that early 1945 in Haigerloch south of Stuttgart, Heisenberg built an atomic reactor but when he wanted to start in April with experiments found out it was 1/3e to small. And at the end of the War, allied forces deconstructed it."

No wonder that history fails to record the details of this flight if it was a test flight done by KG 200 to test the feasibility of a nuke bomb-run on NY.

moot · « **Reply #77 on:** January 07, 2004, 06:37:58 AM »

which 262 had 6 30's ?

Angus · « **Reply #78 on:** January 07, 2004, 07:04:18 AM »

some questions....
1. What exactly is a "Frangible" bullet?
2. Are you sure that the 190's U/C was raised by electricity alone?
I though it was just electrically operated hydraulics.
3. I've seen this Ju 390 story somewhere else, and frankly, I belive it. Of course the US could have seen it's "blip", - but just as well as they saw the "blip" at Pearl Harbour, they could have taken it for a friendly. Now, the only raid on a US town was done by a japanese plane which was launched from a submarine. I wonder if that one showed up as well.
I could also very well belive that this is a case to be hushed. A big fat German plane outside NY in 1943? A scandal!
BTW, could not a specially fuelled up FW Condor have reached the same distance?

MiloMorai · « **Reply #79 on:** January 07, 2004, 07:21:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by moot
which 262 had 6 30's ?

The one and only Me262A-1a/U5, W.Nr. 112355 with 6 MK108s believed to be have been flown operationally by a German ace of JV44.

There was also the Me262A-1a/U1 with 2 MG151/20, 2 MK108 and 2 MK103.

There was also plans to install 4 MK213 C revolver cannons.

Halo · « **Reply #80 on:** January 07, 2004, 09:38:20 AM »

SIX 30 mm cannon, EIGHT .50 caliber mg, TWELVE .303 caliber mg -- okay, those have to be the ultimate homogeneous fighter armaments of WWII.

Here's a fighter factoid question: which fighter achieved the highest altitude kill in WWII? At what altitude? Against what aircraft? Using what weapons? Any other details?

I don't have the foggiest idea what the answer is or even where to hunt for it.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #81 on:** January 07, 2004, 10:04:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Halo

Here's a fighter factoid question: which fighter achieved the highest altitude kill in WWII? At what altitude? Against what aircraft? Using what weapons? Any other details?

I don't have the foggiest idea what the answer is or even where to hunt for it.

Could be a Spit V (2 .50") flying out of Alex(??) that got a recon Ju86P at 40,000ft+ over the Med in May 1942. The Spit eventually reached almost 50,000ft, though not on the intercept. The 2 Spits had no specialize high altitude equipement installed.

Angus · « **Reply #82 on:** January 07, 2004, 11:22:35 AM »

Heard the tile from an old Spit jock that he managed up to 49000 feet. It was a practise flight over England I belive, and the plane was a Mk IX, - perhaps a specialized version for high alt flight.
It was armed though.

Angus · « **Reply #83 on:** January 07, 2004, 11:24:21 AM »

Oh, speaking of Spits, one late variant (not sure which) was tested with 6 Hispano cannons. Must be the heaviest wing mounted armamaent of WW2.

Staga · « **Reply #84 on:** January 07, 2004, 12:23:53 PM »

P-51B/C/D range was well over 1000miles with just internal fuel.

Widewing · « **Reply #85 on:** January 07, 2004, 06:39:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Ok Widewing so we have these Germans who claim they flew to NY and back in 1943. And then we have people like you who say they didn't because " Every attempt was discovered by radar or the standing patrols". What "standing patrols"? What would have stopped them? The US didn't have any operational night fighters in 1943. Some US pilots flew British night fighters in England, but the first US night fighters didn't become operational until 1944.

Take a look at a map of the NYC area and tell me how they got with 12 miles of NYC....

Then consider the extensive radar coverage of the area, even in 1943-44. Also understand that within 25 miles of NYC were four major aircraft manufacturers, with Grumman and Republic being positively huge facilities and Eastern Aircraft (GM) and Brewster being the other two. Just north of Long Island was Vought-Sikorsky.

ASW patrols by both sea and air were around the clock. Fighters were on standby at no less than 6 airfields. Detachments from three squadrons of P-70 night fighters rotated in and out of various airfields on Long Island (used for training and patrol) beginning in early 1943. When U-Boat activity became heavy off of New York, the number of air patrol aircraft, both day and night increased by more than an order of magnitude (from 3-4 aircraft to well over 50). The only way to approach NYC would be from the south, at extreme low level, in the dark on instruments, using the city lights for a reference. However, Naval ASW patrols were constantly scanning the sea in this area with SG radar (by 1944 some even have SF long range radar capable of detecting single aircraft at 150 miles), that will detect a submarine conning tower at 15 miles. Detecting the massive Ju 390 flying aircraft at low level was what golfers call a "gimme", a sure thing.

It would be extremely difficult to sneak in within 12 miles of NYC in a Taylor Cub, much less a very large plane like the Junkers.

Military units were constantly on alert for possible German terror attacks on NYC or any of the massive aircraft factories.

Finally, there is no evidence beyond anecdotal that this mission ever happened. Surely, they could have taken photos of the NYC lights, which could be seen from 50 miles out to sea. More than a few U-Boats brought home such evidence before their operations were driven out to the continental shelf by the ASW patrols (which took a rediculous 6 months to get operational BTW).

So, could they have done this? Perhaps. Is it likely? No, it isn't. Where's the evidence?

My regards,

Widewing

Rasker · « **Reply #86 on:** January 08, 2004, 03:01:52 AM »

Here's more, with a source, for what its worth:

the second prototype of the Ju 390 actually flew from "Mont de Marsan on the Atlantic coast of France, near Bordeaux, [and] it once approached to within 20 km (12.4 miles) of New York before returning safely to base, thus validating the operational concept" (Ford, Germany's Secret Weapons, p.30).

The four-engine Me 264, initially designed in 1937 and 1938, and referred to inside the German government as the "Amerika-Bomber" or the "New York Bomber", had a range of nine thousand miles and was capable of carrying "a five-ton load of bombs to New York, a small load to the middle West, or reconnaissance missions over the West Coast and then returning to Germany without intermediate bases" (Weinberg, Germany, p.197). The Me 264 actually made its first flight in December 1942, when it flew 30 hours non-stop to New York and returned safely to Europe (Ford, Germany's Secret Weapons, p.30).

HoHun · « **Reply #87 on:** January 08, 2004, 12:32:24 PM »

Hi Widewing,

>It would be extremely difficult to sneak in within 12 miles of NYC in a Taylor Cub, much less a very large plane like the Junkers.

I'd say it would have been much easier than, for example, flying a Cessna through the Soviet air defense system in the 1980s to land it in the heart of Moscow :-)

(Not that I believe the Ju 390 (or Me 264) mission actually took place.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

MiloMorai · « **Reply #88 on:** January 08, 2004, 12:48:36 PM »

HoHun, was not that Moscow flight monitored the whole way?

HoHun · « **Reply #89 on:** January 08, 2004, 01:55:48 PM »

Hi Milo,

>HoHun, was not that Moscow flight monitored the whole way?

How would I know? :-) It certainly wasn't intercepted!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)