Author Topic: Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes  (Read 1070 times)

Offline Octavius

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2004, 12:45:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
My next car is probably going to be a Jeep Cherokee with full-time 4wd, unless I see something unbelievable at this year's NAIAS auto show.


Weren't the Cherokees were discontinued?  Hope you find one in decent condition.


Also, the `05 Mustang looks saweet.  I've been saying that for years:  "Why don't they throw an old classic model with modern everything else?"  The fastbacks, chargers, GTOs, and hell, even the oldsmobiles (Cutlass) look mouth watering.

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Offline Urchin

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2004, 12:46:22 PM »
Kinda looks more like an old 240Z to me, only seen a few of them, but that is what the back end reminds me of.

Offline Tarmac

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2004, 12:49:42 PM »
Yeah, pissed me off real good.  Replaced the Cherokee with that damn soccer-mom, grocery-getter Liberty.  BS.  

I hear they're talking about bringing it back, but the concept drawings I've seen are smurfy.  Raised roofline, curvy-er (?curvier?) body styling makes it look like a Land Rover crossed with some Japanese POS SUV.  

I'll grab up a used one, probably 2002.

Offline miko2d

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2004, 12:50:38 PM »
Tarmac: A good American AWD car would be awesome. I've loved Subarus for a while, but couldn't bring myself to buy a foreign car.

 Oklahoma is pretty much as american as Detroit is. And Subary is a great american car. IIRC, it has very high repeat buying stats. If you look some real american area - not a yappy zoo like New York City but a place liek Catskill, where not-so rich people live in mountainous terrain subject to snowfalls, a lot of the cars on the road are Subarus.


Frogm4n: Miko sometimes you open up your mouth before you know what the hell your talking about. dont worry dude, i do it all the time as well.

 Like just now... :)

Economist: Storm clouds over Detroit - Things look bleak for America's motor industry

[quoqte]Coping with the first downturn in a decade was always going to be hard for Detroit's big car makers. Ford and Chrysler plunged into loss in recent years, even as sales boomed. This profitless prosperity drained their coffers, and drew attention to their liabilities, such as their underfunded pension and benefit promises to workers (see article). The rating agencies recently downgraded the debt of Ford and GM almost to “junk”. This makes it costlier for their finance arms to raise capital.[/quote]


Economist: Ticking bomb - Unfunded benefit promises to retired employees are now too big to ignore

Quote
OF ALL the troubles facing America's car makers, the worst may be their unfunded promises to workers, especially retired ones. Fitch, a rating agency, estimates that in 2002 the aggregate pension shortfall of car firms will top $30 billion, most of it attributable to Ford and General Motors. Things look worse when other post-employment benefits (OPEBs), primarily retiree health care, are added in. Last year, GM doled out a hefty $857 in OPEBs for every vehicle it built.


Economist: Extinction of the car giants - Why America's car industry is an endangered species

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GM already has a pension-fund shortfall of $19 billion, as big as its market capitalisation. Add the health-care liabilities of both employees and pensioners, plus the presence of the United Auto Workers (UAW) union, and Detroit is at a huge competitive disadvantage to its Japanese competitors, with their younger, non-unionised workforces. GM, which has two-and-a-half pensioners for every employee, reckons pensions and health-care benefits add $1,000 to the cost of each car it makes. Cuts in the workforce make the burden still greater. In Detroit's circumstances, in short, downsizing cannot deliver results.

Can Detroit escape the grim reaper a third time? The odds look poor. In the past seven years Detroit's share of the American market has slid from 73% to barely 63%. If SUVs, pick-ups and the like are excluded, the big three's share of the passenger-car market is already under half. The backlash against gas-guzzling vehicles can only be bad for Detroit. And the Japanese and German car companies have begun to produce models that compete head-on with such American icons as Ford's F-150 truck. If the Japanese repeat their success with smaller cars, the big three's last profitable redoubt will be overrun. The extinction of America's car giants is no longer just a bad dream: it is coming closer to reality.


Just look at all the articles here:Economist - Search  (car+detroit+union)


 By the way, guys - the dollar is in a major downtrend. The saudis and other mid-east countries still price their oil in dollars even though they mostly trade with Europe, not US. So they are taking a huge loss selling europeans oil 30% cheaper. What will happen if they adjust the dollar price to correspond to its previous value in euros?
 If the price of oil rises, the SUV market is going to get hurt.

 miko

Offline Tarmac

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2004, 12:59:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Tarmac: A good American AWD car would be awesome. I've loved Subarus for a while, but couldn't bring myself to buy a foreign car.

 Oklahoma is pretty much as american as Detroit is. And Subary is a great american car. IIRC, it has very high repeat buying stats. If you look some real american area - not a yappy zoo like New York City but a place liek Catskill, where not-so rich people live in mountainous terrain subject to snowfalls, a lot of the cars on the road are Subarus.
 miko


Unfortunately, I am from Detroit and have been socially conditioned to lynch anyone who buys a foreign car.  Grandfather worked for Chrysler, dad worked for Ford for a bit, uncle works for GM.  Neighbors and friends all work for auto companies, or for companies that contract to the auto companies.  

And it matters where it's designed as much as where it's built, since in my neighborhood and family most of the people are engineers or computer people with the auto companies.  

But I do like them Subies.  I understand GM owns a large chunk (around half) of Subaru - if only they'd buy the other half.  :)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2004, 01:03:01 PM »
Miko you have yet to link how the US carmakers overall low profitability (which I will agree is caused in large part by union contracts) is the cause of their dropping market share.

In other words how are the unions to balme for the unpoularity of US made passenger cars.

Even the sources you list state the cause of dropping market share is due to poor car US designs and the fact that consumers prefer the Japanese passenger cars.

Finally considering the high fixed cost nature of the auto industry made especally worse for US automakers on account of union contaract obligations would it not make sense for US automakers to seek higher market share instead of lower market share so they could spread their fixed costs over a large volume of cars. Plaese dont say union labor vosts are too high to gain market share through price competion as I will simply bring out the example of very popular and very profitable US built trucks and SUVs, which dervive their market share and unit profitabilty through quality of design and meeting the needs of consumers and so commanding a profit generating prices and volumes unlike US passenger cars.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2004, 01:05:15 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline miko2d

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2004, 01:26:06 PM »
GRUNHERZ: Miko you have yet to link how the US carmakers overall low profitability (which I will agree is caused in large part by union contracts) is the cause of their dropping market share.

 Oh, no! If I made that impression, it was a mistake on my part.
 I never intended to imply the US car makers would go bankrupt because of unpopularity. I even said that a temporaty selection of not-so-great models was not the reason for their poroblems.
They are selling a lot of cars. They are just not making enough money selling them to cover their liabilities.

 They are already bankrupt - their liabilities greatly exceed their assets.

In other words how are the unions to balme for the unpoularity of US made passenger cars.

 The retirement and benefit packages, as well as extra capacity due to not-closure of the plants and not adopting labor-saving technologies as much as they could was mostly due to the union pressure.

Even the sources you list state the cause of dropping market share is due to poor car US designs and the fact that consumers prefer the Japanese passenger cars.

 This period. Not in general. In general, they have more liabilities to retirees than the number of current workers could be expected to support.

would it not make sense for US automakers to seek higher market share instead of lower market share so they could spread their fixed costs over a large volume of cars.

 I am sure that selling more cars will be good for them - if they make any profit per car sold. But even if they show good profitability, they will hardly accumulate enough money to cover their liabilities. Unless DOW rises drastically to add value to the pensin funds, or they knock out their competitors completely, there may be just not enougn money whatever they do.

 Plenty of companies selling a great product failed for financial reasons. It's a pity.

 miko

Offline SunTracker

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2004, 01:32:36 PM »
Oh God the new mustang is UGLY!  Car makers need to move forward, not try to make cars look like they did in the 60s.

Oh, an Unions are destroying American auto-makers.  Ford spent more money on health insurance than steel last year.

Offline MC_Honky

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2004, 02:49:56 PM »
RIPSNORT,

If Boeing starts to make airplanes the airlines want then maybe you guys will survive.  SONIC CRUISER ??  LOL !

Offline Furball

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2004, 02:54:24 PM »
heard somewhere that Detroit makes more cars per hour than Aston Martin has made in their entire 100 year + history.
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Offline straffo

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2004, 04:23:41 PM »
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Originally posted by Furball
heard somewhere that Detroit makes more cars per hour than Aston Martin has made in their entire 100 year + history.


More car per hour certainly but none as sexy as an Aston Martin :)

Offline Habu

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2004, 04:45:01 PM »
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Originally posted by MC_Honky
RIPSNORT,

If Boeing starts to make airplanes the airlines want then maybe you guys will survive.  SONIC CRUISER ??  LOL !


As someone who travels to Asia and Europe quite a bit all I can say is that if they had Sonic Cruisers with the range to get me to China in half the time I would take the flight.

The Concorde was a joke. The cost of a ticket put it out of the market. However a Sonic Cruiser seat for the price I pay for Business Class and I am in. After 20 hours and 1 stop on a flight you would be too if you had a choice.

Offline moot

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2004, 02:48:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
Oh God the new mustang is UGLY!  Car makers need to move forward, not try to make cars look like they did in the 60s.

Oh, an Unions are destroying American auto-makers.  Ford spent more money on health insurance than steel last year.


Maybe, but it's always better than the recent camaro/trans-am/mustang Cute plastic look instead of the old kick your bellybutton look.  Buy a EU compact or JP car if you want that.  This is looking more like authentic american attitude and it's much better already.
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Offline senna

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2004, 03:22:08 AM »
Nice new look in the Mustang, reminds me of the older 70s Aston Martins. I like Aston Martins also.





Still needs an independant rear axle.



Would only get the V8.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 03:25:45 AM by senna »

Offline Staga

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Gee, Detroit Auto makers finally open eyes
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2004, 05:14:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
A good American AWD car would be awesome.  I've loved Subarus for a while, but couldn't bring myself to buy a foreign car.

Yeah, I'm from Detroit.


What you need is an old AMC Eagle. Friend's dad has one in here with 360cid dropped in it; sweet car and has 4wd (not sure about locks).