Author Topic: best outcome from space exploration: (Read 7655 times)

kappa · « **Reply #135 on:** January 09, 2004, 04:12:54 PM »

No more time today.. But of your 50 million from WW2,

at least 6 million would be the German Jews killed for religious reasons..

Another 1 million Serbian jews killed in Croatian-run death camp at Jasenovac by your own links..

Muslims k. by Chetniks in Foca-Cajnice:
Aug. 1942: 2,000
Feb. 1943: 9,000
Killed by Tito, 1945-46: 250,000 in shootings, camps and marches.
Mazower, Dark Continent
Serbs k. by Ustase: at least 334,000.
Collaborators k. by Tito, postwar: up to 60,000

religious reasons..

Romania:
Rummel: 484,000 genocides under kings Carol & Michael (1938-48) incl. 302,000 Jews.
Robert Kaplan, Balkan Ghosts (1993): 185,000 Jews from Bessarabia and Moldovia murdered in "the only non-German-run extermination camp in Europe".

More religious reasons..

Also, half of the 50million deaths are civilian and many are contributed to famine.. Not dieing from a bullet.... 50 million is not the correct number to use in your argument..

AKIron · « **Reply #136 on:** January 09, 2004, 04:16:13 PM »

I don't concede the jews were slaughtered in Germany for religious reasons. It was greed and economic reasons that motivated their executions. And racism of course. You should read up a bit on the rise of the nazi party.

cpxxx · « **Reply #137 on:** January 09, 2004, 08:23:10 PM »

Best outcome from space exploration?

We meet a species not unilke us who tell us that their ancestors messed with the gene pool here on Earth thousands of years ago and we are the result. That makes them 'God the creator'. Kinda blows the old 'God created us' myth out of the water doncha think?

But then again, it's likely this species will have a God of the their own. The great Morgatron or something. There is no logic to religion anyway. That's the point. Having a God makes us all special and means we live forever in one form or other. That is intuitively wrong. We all know it in our hearts. Otherwise we would not want to continue to live in this world and wouldn't cry when someone dies. The notion that we cease to exist when we die is very uncomfortable even for an agnostic like me. Hence religion is invented. In atheistic societies, religion is replaced with devotion to the 'great leader' or to the 'great idea'. It's an instinct as much as anything.

Going to war and killing other people who don't agree with your version of the world whether it's religion or idealogy is the norm. Ridiculous circular arguments and name calling won't change that fact. Religion has killed a lot of people and caused a lot of misery over the years. Plus anyone arguing that Hitler's persecution of the Jews is not religion based really needs to get their facts straight. Persecution of the Jews did not start with the Nazis. It was ongoing and persistent for centuries and almost entirely derived from the Bible's implication of the Jews rather than the Romans in the death of Jesus. Remember the version of the Bible we have was essentially written for the Romans. The Jews were the convenient scapegoat. Despite all this their persistent ability to not only survive but thrive was also used against them. If it was solely economic reasons then all the Lawyers and Jewellers and Doctors would have been persecuted. It's pure sophistry to argue that anti semitism is not sectarianism.

Northern Ireland was mentioned. A figure of 3200 dead given. In fact for Ireland as a whole tens if not hundreds of thousands died as a result of religious conflict over the centuries not least as an offshoot of European religious conflict which killed many more. Religion and politics are inextricably linked. Only America wisely attempted to separate it and that constitutional provison still comes under constant attack by those religious for whom politics and religion are one and the same. As it is in the Middle East with Islam.

I think the most likely outcome of contact with another civilisation due to space travel is that we will become suspicious of their motives. Decide they are plotting against us, invade them, wipe them out and take their planet. Let's face it we been doing that for millenia here on Earth. Why should we act any different off the planet. We are a bombastic, aggressive and militaristic species. We like to fight and love war despite protestations to be otherwise inclined. Particularly the European male which includes you Yanks. We won't change on Earth or at the further reaches of the Galaxy.

To use a trekkie analogy we have nothing to fear from the Klingons or the Romulans or the Borg. We are the warrior race, the invaders.

'The destroyers of worlds'

Watch out universe. We are on the way.

Be afraid. Be very afraid you extraterrestials out there.

AKIron · « **Reply #138 on:** January 09, 2004, 09:33:04 PM »

Who said the jews haven't been persecuted for their religion? However, Goebbles convinced recently returned German soldiers that the jews had taken advantage of them while they were away fighting WWI and now owned Germany. Hitler convinced the Germans that they were the master race and deserved all of Germany. The jews had to go. No one would take them including the US. Thus the "Final Solution". Let's stick to facts shall we?

GODO · « **Reply #139 on:** January 10, 2004, 03:35:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by kappa
at least 6 million would be the German Jews killed for religious reasons..

As far as I know they were "doomed" for being an hermetic community having too much power and money over the averagely poor germans, not because their religion.

AKIron · « **Reply #140 on:** January 10, 2004, 11:16:23 AM »

Bottom line: Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people.

Pooh21 · « **Reply #141 on:** January 10, 2004, 05:50:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by kappa
China, with a population of 6 billion??

6 billion live in china? omg, plus the millions killed in the crusades? plus the 70 some ostwinds produced total in ww2? what is this the new math? Facts pulled from a monkeys arse?

Greed has killed more people then religion ever has and ever will. Greed is what is false and everything.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #142 on:** January 10, 2004, 05:58:10 PM »

Why would the existance of life outside earth be proof of the non existance of "God"...

Maniac · « **Reply #143 on:** January 10, 2004, 06:04:25 PM »

Quote

Why would the existance of life outside earth be proof of the non existance of "God"...

Have you read the bible?

Why would a book called the bible be proof for the existence of "God"?

By the way, good posts Nakhui.

Pooh21 · « **Reply #144 on:** January 10, 2004, 06:12:19 PM »

Why wouldmy"encyclopedia factspulledfromamonkeysarsica" which states duckbilled platypus' live in austrailia say they exist when I have no proof whatsoever that that they do in fact exist except for this book?

I have never seen austrailia which means it doesnt exist and I wanna piss in the cornflakes of all the dweebs that say it does because I think it makes me feel smart when I say neither duckbilled platypus' nor austrailia, exists.

lazs2 · « **Reply #145 on:** January 11, 2004, 11:45:57 AM »

kappa... your fanaticizm is every bit as bizzare, unfounded and threatening as any other I have seen. I would not like you to have control over anything that I do.

you are a fanatic in the same vein as all those you oppose.. you would probly think a war with them would be regretable but worth it to get.... oh, say... more old growth forest or shut down churches say... never mind that you have no real reasons besides your "belief"... it is strong and you must be right cause it "feels" right.

I got no more use for your religion than theirs. On a personal one on one basis it is just annoying... like jehova witnesses at the door.... best to just smile at you and let you rattle on with your junk science and "utopia" theories... When you get enough other believers tho... you become threatening. Hopefully that won't happen.

I don't care about "utopia" .... I dont think about it... if it exists I haven't seen it... If it ever happens... fine. Certainly not worth getting all worked up about a fairy tale tho.

Just like your "green" theories... mostly junk science and feel goodism... for all either of us know... 90% of the stuff greenies do is causing more harm than good but..... you "believe". so... impose your will. Might even be worth killing folks if people don't get it soon enough for you. If they don't get "open minded" enough they can be re-educated or imprisoned or just done away with.

prison feels like prison not matter who puts you there.

lazs

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #146 on:** January 11, 2004, 11:49:00 AM »

Where does the bible preclude the existance of life outside this world?

Pooh21 · « **Reply #147 on:** January 11, 2004, 03:38:24 PM »

no one cares about my new austrailtheism movement?

strk · « **Reply #148 on:** January 11, 2004, 03:42:27 PM »

kappa -

I read a great slogan on a bathroom wall that fits here - "fighting for the sake of religion is like f---ing for the sake of virginity"

strk

kappa · « **Reply #149 on:** January 12, 2004, 10:14:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
kappa... your fanaticizm is every bit as bizzare, unfounded and threatening as any other I have seen. I would not like you to have control over anything that I do.

you are a fanatic in the same vein as all those you oppose.. you would probly think a war with them would be regretable but worth it to get.... oh, say... more old growth forest or shut down churches say... never mind that you have no real reasons besides your "belief"... it is strong and you must be right cause it "feels" right.

I got no more use for your religion than theirs. On a personal one on one basis it is just annoying... like jehova witnesses at the door.... best to just smile at you and let you rattle on with your junk science and "utopia" theories... When you get enough other believers tho... you become threatening. Hopefully that won't happen.

lazs,

I have no religion nor do I wish to impose any religion on any person, thing, entity, or idea that I am aware of... You call me a fanatic?? How so?? I dont wish to impose my beliefs on anyone or anything... Im not the jehovas witness at your door because I simply do not care how you or any other might feel to the extent I would wish to change their beliefs in their god... You or your beliefs (or any others) can and will not save me thru beliefs in a god.. What feels 'right' to me, doesnt to other people and that is whats 'right'... That is how it should be... People will disagree... Its a fact of any world I would imagine..

As far as control, I want none... Control is an illusion past our own actions...

I have written practically nothing in this thread of my 'beliefs'. A world with no religion was not my idea and it is just that, an idea.. Something that could or might inspire thought.. I preach to no one how they should live their life.. But if I did my message would be simple.. Live through kindness and civility..

So, lazs, in the most simplistic way that I can conjure this morning about my ideas on religion..

My idea of religion is mine.. Not yours or any others. I do not offer it. I do not sell it. If someone holds a different belief than I, thats ok. That doesnt mean they are wrong.. That doesnt mean I am wrong.. That means everyone should be able to practice their beliefs as they see fit to practice with the assumption that no belief is entirely right or wrong... No belief is inheritly better.... One's conection to their god is theirs alone.. People should be given ideas, not truths..