Author Topic: Land of the surveilled, home of the scared  (Read 2208 times)

Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2004, 11:37:31 AM »
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
In some ways, yes.  Why am I getting the impression that 4,000 dead civilians and two of the worlds tallest buildings destroyed isnt that big of a deal to you?


In the interests of keeping facts straight, and NOT as an attempt to belittle the scope of the tragedy, the actual number (WTC, plus Pentagon, plus people on the 4 aircraft) is just over 3,000.

Offline Duedel

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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2004, 11:47:50 AM »
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
In some ways, yes.  Why am I getting the impression that 4,000 dead civilians and two of the worlds tallest buildings destroyed isnt that big of a deal to you?

What's a big deal 40000 Iranians or 3000 people in the WTC or 1000000 Africans or ...
What the 9/11 not is (and should not be) is the argument for some people to achieve all goals they had since many years before this tradegy happened. This is not only focussed on these sick programs the US government starts and wants to start to "protect" the USA from terrorism (BTW some things where surely necessery) but also on other grovernments all over the world which come with new laws in the name of Protection.

There was terrorism before the 9/11 and there will be terrorism after the 9/11. So I'm asking me why the hell does p.e. GWB startet his programs after 9/11? Why not earlier????? Or am I wrong here?

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2004, 11:52:58 AM »
Iraq and Saddam killed 40,000 Iranians?

I know they had a war like the USA Vs. Iraq and Saddam, but I didn't know Saddam was so efficient at killing Iranians.

I'd guess your painfully wrong, but your not humiliated. Ignorance is bliss.

Offline Nefarious

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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2004, 12:00:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Duedel
There was terrorism before the 9/11 and there will be terrorism after the 9/11. So I'm asking me why the hell does p.e. GWB startet his programs after 9/11? Why not earlier????? Or am I wrong here?



Because there is no way in hell that the USA-Patriot Act would have been passed pre-911. GWB would have been called an enemy of the people if he had tried it before 911.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2004, 12:03:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Duedel
What's a big deal 40000 Iranians or 3000 people in the WTC or 1000000 Africans or


because if Ameica goes down, the world goes down with it. That is the difference
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Offline Maniac

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« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2004, 12:06:45 PM »
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because if Ameica goes down, the world goes down with it. That is the difference


Do you mean that America will launch its Nukes the day it goes down?
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Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2004, 12:10:49 PM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
Do you mean that America will launch its Nukes the day it goes down?


People on this BBS really need a lesson in how to read between the lines and draw inferences from statements.

Offline Nefarious

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« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2004, 12:10:58 PM »
What is the USA PATRIOT Act?

Just six weeks after the September 11 attacks, a panicked Congress passed the "USA/Patriot Act," an overnight revision of the nation's surveillance laws that vastly expanded the government's authority to spy on its own citizens, while simultaneously reducing checks and balances on those powers like judicial oversight, public accountability, and the ability to challenge government searches in court.

Why Congress passed the Patriot Act

Most of the changes to surveillance law made by the Patriot Act were part of a longstanding law enforcement wish list that had been previously rejected by Congress, in some cases repeatedly. Congress reversed course because it was bullied into it by the Bush Administration in the frightening weeks after the September 11 attack.

The Senate version of the Patriot Act, which closely resembled the legislation requested by Attorney General John Ashcroft, was sent straight to the floor with no discussion, debate, or hearings. Many Senators complained that they had little chance to read it, much less analyze it, before having to vote. In the House, hearings were held, and a carefully constructed compromise bill emerged from the Judiciary Committee. But then, with no debate or consultation with rank-and-file members, the House leadership threw out the compromise bill and replaced it with legislation that mirrored the Senate version. Neither discussion nor amendments were permitted, and once again members barely had time to read the thick bill before they were forced to cast an up-or-down vote on it. The Bush Administration implied that members who voted against it would be blamed for any further attacks - a powerful threat at a time when the nation was expecting a second attack to come any moment and when reports of new anthrax letters were appearing daily.

Congress and the Administration acted without any careful or systematic effort to determine whether weaknesses in our surveillance laws had contributed to the attacks, or whether the changes they were making would help prevent further attacks. Indeed, many of the act's provisions have nothing at all to do with terrorism.

The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas

Records searches. It expands the government's ability to look at records on an individual's activity being held by a third parties. (Section 215)
Secret searches. It expands the government's ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
"Trap and trace" searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects "addressing" information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214).
1. Expanded access to personal records held by third parties

One of the most significant provisions of the Patriot Act makes it far easier for the authorities to gain access to records of citizens' activities being held by a third party. At a time when computerization is leading to the creation of more and more such records, Section 215 of the Patriot Act allows the FBI to force anyone at all - including doctors, libraries, bookstores, universities, and Internet service providers - to turn over records on their clients or customers.

Unchecked power
The result is unchecked government power to rifle through individuals' financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record. Making matters worse:

The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an "agent of a foreign power," a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.
The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement for "probable cause" that is listed in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.
Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.
Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the Web sites they visit, or a letter to the editor they have written.
A person or organization forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone. As a result of this gag order, the subjects of surveillance never even find out that their personal records have been examined by the government. That undercuts an important check and balance on this power: the ability of individuals to challenge illegitimate searches.
Why the Patriot Act's expansion of records searches is unconstitutional
Section 215 of the Patriot Act violates the Constitution in several ways. It:

Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.
Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.
Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.
Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Nefarious

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« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2004, 12:13:04 PM »
I like this line the best-

"The Bush Administration implied that members who voted against it would be blamed for any further attacks - a powerful threat at a time when the nation was expecting a second attack to come any moment and when reports of new anthrax letters were appearing daily. "
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2004, 12:13:35 PM »
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draw inferences from statements.


I dont know that word "inferences" can you please explain it in another way?
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2004, 12:14:09 PM »
If you exhibit any concern about the surveillance measures, then THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!

Won't somebody please think of the children?
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Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2004, 12:18:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
I dont know that word "inferences" can you please explain it in another way?


Although I am far from being an English Major, drawing an inference would mean that based on Eagler's statement you would reach the conclusion that he intended to convey based the "tone" or "context" of the statement (which is tough to do on a BBS, but in any event).

For example, what I inferred from Eagler's statement was that he could not reasonably think that "if America goes down" it would be its last act to nuke the rest of the planet.  Rather, given the tone, context and having read previous Eagler posts, I believe he was suggesting that "if America goes down" then so does the world's economy, security, etc.

So inferring something from a statement is reaching the conclusion that the poster was trying to convey, without the poster actually having to state that conclusion in the statement.

Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2004, 12:19:51 PM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
If you exhibit any concern about the surveillance measures, then THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!

Won't somebody please think of the children?


I thought the standard party line was if you exhibit any concern about any GWB policy then YOU ARE a terrorist.  :D

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2004, 12:23:51 PM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
If you exhibit any concern about the surveillance measures, then THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!

Won't somebody please think of the children?


That's worth a quote. ;)

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2004, 12:29:20 PM »
If he thought of his children, stones, apples as treats, and popcorn-balls (finally) would be outlawed on Halloween. They would become instant dork-seeking  missiles.