Land of the surveilled, home of the scared

[Yeager]

Im not scared.

Are you scared sandman?

[FUNKED1]

I think this legislation is ridiculous, but the IRS already violates our privacy in a much worse way.

[Creamo]

And how did that come about with the IRS?

Slow, sneaky laws that Yeager isn't scared of, one yawning law at a time, or did it happen all at once. Miko could tell you.

I don't fear the IRS, yet in fact, the IRS seized my parent’s bank account on a flaw in their records. It was a real bad situation till the IRA didn't apologize, released the funds, and made absolutely no restitution to their financial obligations when they were deemed derelict check bouncers.

It's that type of **** that will become the norm, but on a bigger scale. For instance, the government, if it's molded after the Chicago system of Postal Offices, isn't a talent pool of sorts, BY ANY MEANS. Matter fact, in Chicago, if you don't send a letter through a Black Woman, someone pry died, and is an intern. Next year, an illegal immigrant I'd bet.

Im scared, and pissed.

[Nefarious]

Originally posted by Gyro/T69
Not at all. Just pointing out things are never as cut and dry as we would like them to be.

Thats Cool.

Take a look at this,

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/96-499.htm

"Starting in the first Administration of President Reagan, the Department of Justice has sought reform of immigration law and procedures to better enable this country to protect itself against the threat of alien terrorists. The chief target of these reforms is the statutory and administrative protection given to such aliens, many of which are not required by the due process clause of the Fifth or Fourteenth Amendment or any other provision of law, that enable alien terrorists to delay their removal from the U.S.

"The need for special procedures to adjudicate deportation charges against alien terrorists is manifest. Terrorist organizations have developed sophisticated international networks that allow their members great freedom of movement and opportunity to strike, including within the United States. They are attracting a more qualified cadre of adherents with increasing technical skills. Several terrorist groups have established footholds within immigrant communities in the U.S.

"The nature of these groups tends to shield the participants from effective counterterrorism efforts -- including the most basic measures of removing them from our soil. The U.S. relies heavily upon close and continued cooperation of friendly nations who provide information on the identity of such terrorists. Such information will only be forthcoming if it sources continue to be protected. Thus, it is essential to the national security of the U.S. that procedures be established to permit the use of classified information in appropriate cases to establish the deportability of an alien terrorist.

"Such procedures also must be crafted to meet constitutional requirements. The government's efforts to safeguard lives and property and to protect the national security may be contested on the grounds that they conflict with the procedural rights of aliens. The interests of the government must therefore be balanced against the legitimate rights of those privileged to be present within the United States." 142 Cong.Rec. H3334-335 (daily ed. April 15, 1996).


I'm still reading it (It's Very Long), but It caught my eye.

[Rude]

Give me one example of abuse of power since the patriot act was passed.

[Creamo]

Define "Abuse of Power".

Like when the ATF gassed the children in Waco so the ATF would make their parents surrender?

[gofaster]

Originally posted by Rude
Give me one example of abuse of power since the patriot act was passed.

My wife won't let me stay up past midnight during a workweek when I'm playing "Aces High".

[Nefarious]

United States v. Osama Awadallah
Osama Awadallah, a Jordanian-born college student, was charged last year with making two
false statements during a grand jury proceeding arising out of the terrorist attacks of Sept.
11. The charges were later dropped, but they could have cost him up to 10 years in prison.
Awadallah was held by the U.S. government -- often shackled and in solitary confinement --
for a total of 83 days, from Sept. 21 until Dec. 13, 2001. He was initially held on a material
witness warrant. After his appearance before a grand jury 20 days following his detention,
he was indicted on charges of perjury because he had denied knowing the name of one of the
Sept. 11 terrorists.
In May 2002, Judge Shira A. Scheindlin of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District
of New York dismissed the perjury charges against him and ruled that his detention as a
material witness without being charged was unlawful. Authorities “made several
misrepresentations and omissions” to get an arrest warrant for Awadallah and then
misapplied the material witness statute to have him testify before a grand jury, she said. “If
the government has probable cause to believe a person has committed a crime, it may arrest
that person,” she wrote. “But since 1789, no Congress has granted the government the
authority to imprison an innocent person in order to guarantee that he will testify before a
grand jury conducting a criminal investigation.” Scheindlin also criticized authorities for
treating Awadallah in a manner “more restrictive than that experienced by the general
[prison] population.” He was kept in prolonged solitary confinement even before he was
charged with a crime.
Status: On Nov. 22, the ACLU filed a friend-of-the-court brief urging a federal appeals
court to uphold the ruling that the government unlawfully used the material witness
statute to detain Awadallah. A decision in the case is pending.

Sounds like an abuse of power to me.

[GtoRA2]

I am not sure if this was before or after the patriot act but this was a HuGE abus of power.


Check this link out

NO JUSTICE HERE: March 26 The government is refusing the judge's order to have Padilla meet with his lawyers, and is appealing the case.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On June 9, 2002 Jose Padilla--a.k.a. Abdullah Al Muhajir--was transferred from control of the U.S. Department of Justice to military control. Since that time, Padilla has been held in a navy brig in South Carolina.
Padilla has not been charged with a crime, and does not have access to a lawyer in his detention. This is a clear violation of the 5th Amendment, and probably a violation of the 6th Amendment. It is also a clearly abominable violation of the democratic traditions of the United States.

Padilla has been accused of plotting heinous acts of terrorism, particularly the setting off of a "dirty bomb". He has been accused of conspiring with members of al-Queda, and planning to scout for that terrorist organization, using the benefits of his U.S. citizenship. President Bush has designated Padilla an "enemy combatant".

These are frightening accusations, and they may be true. Accusations do not give the President the authority to lock someone away, however. According to the laws and traditions of the U.S., the way to determine who gets imprisoned is through the due process of a trial by jury.

Jose Padilla may be a traitor and a terrorist. But he was not captured in Afghanistan with a gun in his hand. He was arrested at Chicago O'Hare airport. If Jose Padilla can be held without criminal charges, strictly on the say-so of the President, then any American can be. That is tyranny. We must put an end to it.

It is essential that Padilla be either freed or charged with a crime.

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Duedel
Where did i say that the US is unimportant? I said the US is not so important that if all US citizens would die and the USA would vanish the world still turns.

Well, thanks for saving me the trouble of quoting your last post.  The back to back sentances were convinenent.

I think u have a big problem to understand postings. Maybe that's the cause for ur little baiting here. [/B]

Nah, Im just practicing.  Besides, I dont like your avatar.  

[Creamo]

And imagine Janet Reno squealing up a religious gun dealer "A Stockpiler" of weapons, (gee, ya think gun dealer stockpile or have inventory?) and leading it to a standoff where they gas and burn everyone alive. For what?

Guns? Arrest him at the 7-11.

I'm scared of rich people, they are always prettythangholes.So burn down the banks and firebomb their yahts?

The USA, including Bush who is the only choice, is doing some really shadey crap. Clinton/Reno bad? In time, much worse I think. Not in lives lost in standoffs worse, but just making it so you have no hope of being at home and not having to have the ATF come demand they want to search your bedroom.

And in my case, I signed a document that because of the retarded "Patriot Act" (what a joke, the irony) they can come INTO my house unannounced at any time.

[FUNKED1]

Originally posted by Rude
Give me one example of abuse of power since the patriot act was passed.

How the heck are we going to know if there is an abuse of power when the law makes secret the information regarding the records seizures?

[Rude]

Originally posted by Creamo
Define "Abuse of Power".

Like when the ATF gassed the children in Waco so the ATF would make their parents surrender?

I had no idea the Patriot Act was the basis for that debacle...I stand corrected.

[Rude]

Originally posted by Nefarious
United States v. Osama Awadallah
Osama Awadallah, a Jordanian-born college student, was charged last year with making two
false statements during a grand jury proceeding arising out of the terrorist attacks of Sept.
11. The charges were later dropped, but they could have cost him up to 10 years in prison.
Awadallah was held by the U.S. government -- often shackled and in solitary confinement --
for a total of 83 days, from Sept. 21 until Dec. 13, 2001. He was initially held on a material
witness warrant. After his appearance before a grand jury 20 days following his detention,
he was indicted on charges of perjury because he had denied knowing the name of one of the
Sept. 11 terrorists.
In May 2002, Judge Shira A. Scheindlin of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District
of New York dismissed the perjury charges against him and ruled that his detention as a
material witness without being charged was unlawful. Authorities “made several
misrepresentations and omissions” to get an arrest warrant for Awadallah and then
misapplied the material witness statute to have him testify before a grand jury, she said. “If
the government has probable cause to believe a person has committed a crime, it may arrest
that person,” she wrote. “But since 1789, no Congress has granted the government the
authority to imprison an innocent person in order to guarantee that he will testify before a
grand jury conducting a criminal investigation.” Scheindlin also criticized authorities for
treating Awadallah in a manner “more restrictive than that experienced by the general
[prison] population.” He was kept in prolonged solitary confinement even before he was
charged with a crime.
Status: On Nov. 22, the ACLU filed a friend-of-the-court brief urging a federal appeals
court to uphold the ruling that the government unlawfully used the material witness
statute to detain Awadallah. A decision in the case is pending.

Sounds like an abuse of power to me.

sounds necessary to me....try again.

[Rude]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
I am not sure if this was before or after the patriot act but this was a HuGE abus of power.


Check this link out

NO JUSTICE HERE: March 26 The government is refusing the judge's order to have Padilla meet with his lawyers, and is appealing the case.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On June 9, 2002 Jose Padilla--a.k.a. Abdullah Al Muhajir--was transferred from control of the U.S. Department of Justice to military control. Since that time, Padilla has been held in a navy brig in South Carolina.
Padilla has not been charged with a crime, and does not have access to a lawyer in his detention. This is a clear violation of the 5th Amendment, and probably a violation of the 6th Amendment. It is also a clearly abominable violation of the democratic traditions of the United States.

Padilla has been accused of plotting heinous acts of terrorism, particularly the setting off of a "dirty bomb". He has been accused of conspiring with members of al-Queda, and planning to scout for that terrorist organization, using the benefits of his U.S. citizenship. President Bush has designated Padilla an "enemy combatant".

These are frightening accusations, and they may be true. Accusations do not give the President the authority to lock someone away, however. According to the laws and traditions of the U.S., the way to determine who gets imprisoned is through the due process of a trial by jury.

Jose Padilla may be a traitor and a terrorist. But he was not captured in Afghanistan with a gun in his hand. He was arrested at Chicago O'Hare airport. If Jose Padilla can be held without criminal charges, strictly on the say-so of the President, then any American can be. That is tyranny. We must put an end to it.

It is essential that Padilla be either freed or charged with a crime.

Again....not an abuse, but a prudent action.