Author Topic: Land of the surveilled, home of the scared (Read 2247 times)

Creamo · « **Reply #90 on:** January 08, 2004, 03:53:06 PM »

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Originally posted by Yeager
How better to avoid detection than through privacy protection.

Damn the pivacy! My Gad.

Can Fatty, MiniD, Me, and Frogtard come into your house today? I have government clearance of sorts to go anywhere on an airport on airliners, not sure if they do, but if you have nothing to hide?

Rude · « **Reply #91 on:** January 08, 2004, 03:53:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Creamo
Civil liberities are a luxury that a spoiled and undeserving nation has grown to accept as deserved and not earned.

Well, ya got balls for thinking that. Vets might differ. I have to go to lunch with Cathy, shop, and pay my water bill. If you asked me today to load up guns and fight off a enemy, like the ATF shooting Cathy in the garage over a gun warrent, you'd see some true squealing Patriot **** like the ATF did in Waco, with me shooting back.(BTW, I have 1 step left in my ATF LEUP left to go, the blackpowder can I bought at a hobby store is equally illegal as a weapon, Shhhh.)

BTW....you're right Creamo....Waco was wrong....no conspiracy by the government to take away our rights....simply gross negligence by Reno and a President who lacked the stones to stand up to her.

No conspiracy? They staged a media circus to give good light to their past F'ups, taking AMERICANS lives. I have the right to live, don't you?

Again...Waco was wrong and a major cover up....still, mismanagement is at the root and a corupt AJ....not a premeditated conspiracy to betray our civil rights....just my opinion tho, I could be mistaken.

narsus · « **Reply #92 on:** January 08, 2004, 03:54:47 PM »

Rude

WTF are you talking about, this isn't just now that I am aware of this. My eyes are wide open and I don't like what I see, I am voicing that concern as is my right to do so, as is your right to have your opinion. It is never good giving government too much control, history should prove that point. We must tread carefiully as citizens to not give the government too much power. You can't trust people with power it is almost always abused.

Is our justice system a bit pooched absolutely, so lets go make it worse by passing laws that take more civil liberties away from us.

MJHerman hit the nail on the head.

DoctorYO · « **Reply #93 on:** January 08, 2004, 03:57:20 PM »

Rude I have no problems with the patriot act 2 if the following conditions are met:

Abuse of PA1 or PA2 against US citizens is met with the death penalty..

No exceptions... you abuse your power you die...preferable thru public torture.. and your head on the end of stick is paraded thru the streets for the mob to ridicule..

It should be the highest law of the land period.. You abuse your govt elected or appointed position you die.. Just that simple..

Enable that and our country will clean itself up...

If there were laws on the books supporting such action then im all for patriot act or whatever else...

Doesn't take a genius to notice when people are given power with no checks and balances they become corrupt.. Power intoxicates.. (Skuzzy... Joking..)

PA2 is exactly such a bill that gives power with no checks and balances. Our public realized this and outcry was rampant.. What did the regime do they sneak in the powers and sign it to law on the day Saddam was caught.. That way they could overshadow the real problem while the world rejoices. Pretty insidious for a so-called democracy..

Democracy is a govt ruled by the people and what happened that Saturday was subterfuge.. and despotism...

This is a known, not DoctorYo hoopla..

Read history it will prove what I just said..

People are quick for action but really when I see APB's for almanacs my confidence in our current regime falters..

That was cluster **** to instill panic and no other tactical purpose with exception of using propaganda vs. our own people or counterintelligence ops take your pick. And that was outlawed by congress a long time ago.. Yet we still had apb's for almanacs... what’s next I love Bush Teeshirts or comic books or dictionaries, magic the gathering cards. Stupidity, the public even had to hear such crap...

Simple really, people want the power but want to ignore the responsibility that comes with it.

That’s all for now...

DoctorYo

This Country will go fubar in less than 20 years... between numskulls running our govt. to terrorists to Martha Stewart end days are near....

Rude · « **Reply #94 on:** January 08, 2004, 03:57:54 PM »

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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Rude
With our borders as open as they are a nuke going of in this nation is just a mater of time.

I will blame who ever is responsible for not securing our borders. Right now that man is Bush.

I will not be surprised when it happens at all.

I respect that you have thought out your position, and though I do not agree with you I can see your point.

My only counter point would be, the terrorist have done more damage then just killing 3000 of us, because the government is doing what it is doing. Slowly our rights and freedoms away.

GT...got news for ya...no way on God's green earth could our borders be secured to a point where another attack would be impossible....effort is better spent taking the fight to their front door.

We know much more than the public is allowed to see....trust me on this. We are safer than you might think, however, the odds are not in our favor to avoid another attack.

You'll see the terroist effort ramped up prior to this years election....the removal of Bush is a terrorist priority....I wonder why?

Yeager · « **Reply #95 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:04:10 PM »

If I am suspected of being a terrorist or having associations with any you had better get in and find out before I know about you, not after.

Rude said:
the removal of Bush is a terrorist priority....I wonder why?
====
Funny isnt it, how the liberal left socialist movement and radical islamic terror are on the same page.

Rude · « **Reply #96 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:07:38 PM »

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Originally posted by narsus
Rude

WTF are you talking about, this isn't just now that I am aware of this. My eyes are wide open and I don't like what I see, I am voicing that concern as is my right to do so, as is your right to have your opinion. It is never good giving government too much control, history should prove that point. We must tread carefiully as citizens to not give the government too much power. You can't trust people with power it is almost always abused.

Is our justice system a bit pooched absolutely, so lets go make it worse by passing laws that take more civil liberties away from us.

MJHerman hit the nail on the head.

I think the only distinction between your point of view and mine is this.....you fear the loss of your civil rights....I'm willing to give some up knowing they can be recovered when and if the day comes when it would be appropriate.

I cannot think of one circumstance where yours truly would be of interest to a goverment bent on securing our country or an instance where I would be involved in any activity which would bring them down to my neck of the woods to put me in the pokey and deny me anything related to my constituional rights as an American citizen.

Maniac · « **Reply #97 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:10:49 PM »

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I'm willing to give some up knowing they can be recovered when and if the day comes when it would be appropriate.

You wish lol!

narsus · « **Reply #98 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:15:35 PM »

Thats the problem Rude, how many government programs and/or laws are repealled, they usually stay well after the situation has been resolved.

Income Tax was introduced to help pay for WWI, that hasn't gone away, there are still governement programs from the great depression that are still around today. Once you give an inch it's very hard to take back.

MJHerman · « **Reply #99 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:17:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rude
I think the only distinction between your point of view and mine is this.....you fear the loss of your civil rights....I'm willing to give some up knowing they can be recovered when and if the day comes when it would be appropriate.

I cannot think of one circumstance where yours truly would be of interest to a goverment bent on securing our country or an instance where I would be involved in any activity which would bring them down to my neck of the woods to put me in the pokey and deny me anything related to my constituional rights as an American citizen.

I can't recall the exact quote, but isn't it something like "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance"?

From my point of view, the overall concern is that the price to be paid in terms of limitations on civil rights may, in the end, be too high. Frankly, once rights are eroded they are generally never reinstated....that's just the way government works.

I don't buy into the argument that one has nothing to be afraid of in terms of these limitations if one isn't doing anything wrong. These things are too easily abused.

I'm all for sealed search warrants, keeping certain information classified from the public at large, even "secret trials" which are conducted in accordance with recognized procedures and safeguards. But at some point, those limitations and special rules cross the line and undermine the very principles upon which the United States was founded and which it has defended and promoted for the last 200+ years.

There is a famous tale told by a priest (I think) who survived the Holocaust. When someone asked him why he didn't object when the Gestapo rounded up the Jews, he replied that it was not his problem because he wasn't Jewish. When the Gypsies were rounded up, same answer. And same answer for everyone else who was shipped off to the death camps. And then he mentions that when the Gestapo showed up to arrest him, there was no one left to speak up. It may be the stuff of legend, but it does a good job of showing why some people object so much to these issues.

In most cases, they are not "liberals" or "Bush haters" or "terrorists" or "terrorist sympathizers" or "communists" or "traitors", nor do they wish to see America attacked and lives lost....they are Americans.

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #100 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:21:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rude
I think the only distinction between your point of view and mine is this.....you fear the loss of your civil rights....I'm willing to give some up knowing they can be recovered when and if the day comes when it would be appropriate.

You play a WWII game, and you make a statement like that.

He who gives up essential liberty for a little temporary security
deserves neither liberty nor security. - Benjamin Franklin.
-SW

Munkii · « **Reply #101 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:23:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
In some ways, yes. Why am I getting the impression that 4,000 dead civilians and two of the worlds tallest buildings destroyed isnt that big of a deal to you?

It is a big deal to me, but my privacy is more important to me. If terrorism is such a huge threat, and anything and everything must be done to prevent it, why was nothing done after the Murrah Building? I lost 3 family members and almost a dozen friends of myself and family in that bombing. It wasn't done by Osama Bin Laden, Sadam Hussein, Yasser Arafat, or Kofi. It was done by Timothy McVeigh. An American citizen, angry at our government. When he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah bombing at 9:01 AM on April 19th, 1995, he wasn't protesting us in Saudi Arabia, he was angry at our own government.

What happened to all the militia men in Wyoming and Montana whom McVeigh was associated? Haved the lost their weapons? Have they been detained for hours at an airport, or imprisoned in solitary confinement without being charged for anything?

Losing our freedom's is nothing to take lightly, the fact that many of you think that honestly scares me. Do I think the world is some happy place where no one ever dies? No, but nor do I think that the American people will ever be safe as long as we are the Super Power that we are. Super Powers piss people off, its a way of politics. The government says they are protecting terror while instigating it. I do not trust anything that takes away my freedoms, men fought and died for our freedoms in a war this websites game is based on. Would they appreciate their financial records being gone through "just because"? There have been many documented cases of abuse of new anti-terrorism laws.

To be told I care nothing about the people who died in the WTC, is insulting to say the least. To give up my freedoms because of it lets the terrorists win, and American people will forever travel the globe in fear, because we are letting them win.

Rude · « **Reply #102 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:35:07 PM »

Well....it's nice to have a good discussion with folks on this board for a change

Suffice it to say....what abuses we have today by our goverment(IRS, Religious, Speech, etc) is our own fault....we are all accountable and until we buck up as men and women deserving of these freedoms, it will continue to get worse.

We have much greater issues working against us in this country than GWB and the Patriot Act...I mean, C'mon guys....you read the papers and watch the news....I bet you even know of people who have had their rights twisted by a judge or had a municipality flex it's muscle against you or how about bond issues in the cities you live in....monies not spent on projuects promised, all left unchecked by us.

I'm gettin old and slow and tired, but I'll fight like a dog to right what is not right....it's just that I do not fear the PA like some of you and do not feel that abuse will take place.

The fact it is as visible on the nations radar screen only reaffirms to me that once it strays from it's intended path, those wielding the power will be held accountable by us all.

Rude · « **Reply #103 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:39:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
You play a WWII game, and you make a statement like that.

He who gives up essential liberty for a little temporary security
deserves neither liberty nor security. - Benjamin Franklin.
-SW

You might be overreacting a bit....the PA is not the end all in it's present form....some folks fear what should not be feared....my eyes are open and GWB does not have carte blanche in Rude's book....I just do not think as some of you do, that we have lost anything.

If we reach a point where I feel we are, you'll hear me speak of it here I'm sure....cept I'll use up some favors from all of the powerful folks I know....like Babs and Madonna:)

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #104 on:** January 08, 2004, 04:45:55 PM »

I fear anything that gives the government more authority and free reign over the populace.

The PA may not have affected me, but you can bet for certain that its just one of those building blocks that will lead to affecting me.

Exactly how it started in Germany, bit by bit and before you know it those words of "it doesn't affect me, so why should I care" come right on back to bite you (or us) in the ass.

You should always care when the government is passing laws or bills or acts, because the only one governing the government is ourselves.
-SW