About terrorism and Saudi Arabia

[GODO]

I have some friends working on oil installations at Saudi Arabia. Some of them have been there for almost a year and what they found is really disturbing. Basically, the royal family seems to pay lots of money to local religious leaders to prevent them to attack Royal family interests and even to prevent a fundamentalism insurgention. What do you think these fundamentalists do with all the money?

[ra]

I've never been to Saudi Arabia and I already knew this.

[Otto]

Godo, your friends confirm something everyone in the US government knows.  Saudi Arabia is a courpt 'house-of-cards' that's going to fall any day.  Maybe another reason for camping out next door.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Otto
Godo, your friends confirm something everyone in the US government knows.  Saudi Arabia is a courpt 'house-of-cards' that's going to fall any day.  Maybe another reason for camping out next door.

Neighborhood block watch! (Waves to Lance)

Tactically, brilliant.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by GScholz
Strategically Ripsnort, strategically ... or strategery as your CIC would say, and it is not even close to be "brilliant".

what would you do different given the information that saudi arabia as we know my cease to exist?

myself i see it as being 2 steps ahead

[Yeager]

but we both know the goal is not to fight terrorism
====
I have heard from many differing sources that the idea is to  have a democratic Iraq that would act as a stabilizing force in the region.  Might even act as a progressive force in the region and help bring the masses of iraqi people closer to a life worth living for instead of dying in spite of.  Of course, our dear liberal brothers on the "other side of the aisle" see things in a completely different manner.  Bush is the devil.  A greedy hollow shell of an excuse of a man, willing to kill our kids to get rich and preserve his stock options in the oil industry...and on and on.....

A free Iraq, successfully governed by Iraqi people would be a blow to islamic fanatic terror and greatly reduce its influence.   Silly amercian idealism perhaps?  you tell me.  There are some 130,000 amercians facing death every day in Iraq.

[Gunslinger]

I'm still curious GS would you fight terrorism....how would you do it if anything at all?

[Gunslinger]

so if somone punches you in the eye ask them to stop.  I dont see how that works but maybe i'm not understanding what your trying to say.  HOW/WHEN did it happen in germany/italy.

Also, giving in to terrorist demands would lead to more terrorism...yes/no?

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by GScholz
No, not do what the terrorists wants, but the people whom they draw their support from.

Ever heard of the Baader-Meinhof gang or the Red Brigades?

No i will have to plead ignorance here.  I do agree with you that winning of hearts and minds of the arab community is important.  But I also believe that there are WAY too many arabs out there that have no desire to have there hearts and minds won by anyone.  All they want is blood.  Call me brainwashed but there is a whole culture out there (mostly caused by past American policy)  that has nothing to do but hate us.  There are alot of reasons why they hate us but the reasons start becoming irelevent when planes start crashing and people start getting killed


Not to say that I am a fan of war, quite the opposite.  I serve my country proudly and am ready willing and able to answer its call, BUT I allways hope I never have to.  

A part of me would like nothing else better than to turn a majority of the middle east into one big plane of glass.  I know this isnt practical nor moral.  So to me the next best thing is to have a strategic strong hold there.  A place to hopfully gain support for our cause of peace.  I think a lot of peace advocates think that the war on terror can be won through apeasment and negotiations.  Well talk is cheap and I am convinced that the people that want to hurt my country have no desire what so ever to talk to us and find out what's really bothering them.


just my rant....goin to bed

[_Schadenfreude_]

The whole thing about Christmas Tree's being illegal makes me wonder...

[Gyro/T69]

GScholz, did you read this letter posted by Habu?
It was in a thread that had nothing to do with the post. No one had any thing to say about it.


As far the Iraqi situation goes, the following is from a Major in the US special forces in Iraq. He sent it today. He is a former Aces High player as well not that that matters.

"Ok, done with the pleasantries, now I'll get to the point. Everything I've seen so far confirms in my eyes that what we are doing here is good and right and should be continued.

The Iraqi people are good and decent, and are working hard to achieve self-government. Contrary to media reports, the vast majority of the poplulation are friendly and supportive. Waves and thumbs-up are not uncommon.

We are making huge strides in creating native capabilities for law and order. The Iraqi Police are a presence everywhere, and they are energetically taking to their new role as protectors of the people instead of bullies of the people.

The Iraqi Army and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps are growing by leaps and bounds. By this summer there will be more Iraqi infantry battalions than US battalions in Iraq. Their competence leaves something to be desired, but that will come.

As for our own soldiers, I am very proud of them. I was genuinely worried how the Army would react to continued casualties in an insurgent environment. I expected a good degree of overreaction, or of withdrawal into excessive fortification. But the troops are doing their jobs well, restraining themselves, and developing no animosity towards the people. The insurgents are failing to drive a wedge between us.

The most striking thing to me is the single-mindedness of purpose I see everywhere. Every soldier and officer I speak to knows what the mission is: to create a free and stable Iraq for the people of Iraq. We speak of it everyday, and we believe in it. Whatever you may think of the intentions of our national leaders, I can tell you what we are doing on the ground here: building a country. Morale is much higher than I expected, despite the grim nature of the conflict.

The enemy is clever but not invincible. Most of the prisoners we take are poor Iraqi Sunnis, and reliqiously motivated young men from Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, or elsewhere. They are brought here by fervent sermons and their own idealistic vision of defending Islam and becoming a hero. When they arrive, they are kept in isolation until they are thrown at a target as cannon fodder. Most attackers don't survive their first attack. Of the ones who remain, we round them up by the hundreds, almost always after tips by locals who want them out of their neighborhoods. When shown the reality of what is happening in Iraq, they are shocked to see Iraqis and Americans working side by side. Many of them realize they have been lied to.

Vast areas of the country are actually safe for travel. The Shia and Kurds are overwhelmingly pro-Coalition and actively support our efforts. That amounts to about 70% of the population and an equal area of land. Almost all Shia and Kurdish areas are friendly to Coalition forces. The british division in the south hasn't had casualties in months, and doesn't even wear helmets or body armor. The Dutch troops south of Baghdad walk the streets in pairs, passing out candy to celebrate Saddam's capture.

The big hero of this war is going to be Paul Bremer. He has kept the effort firmly fixed on the political endstate of an Iraqi government and the end of US occupation. He is reportedly wildly popular with Iraqis, who contrast his integrity and selflessness with Saddam and his sons. "

[Gyro/T69]

" have and you're right, it has nothing to do with this thread or the war on terror. That you are rebuilding Iraq is one thing, fighting terrorism is another"

Your quote "Terrorists do not fight wars on a battlefield, they fight a war of public opinion."


Ok... I guess that winning the hearts and mind stuff in the letter was my imagination.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by GScholz
How would I fight terrorism (presuming I actually had the power and influence to do so)?  I would do the only thing that historically has defeated terrorism: Gain the support of the people that the terrorist are recruiting from by doing what those people want. Just like it was done in Germany, Italy and Northern Ireland.

 So, what you'd do is set up the entire world under an Islamic fundamentalist form of govt?  Ok fine, of course you could go for the old "re-education" of the masses (in "those" coutries") in order to "unconvince" the people in those countries what they've been taught by various fanatical Imam's for the last who know's how many years. OR, do you just BUY thier support at the taxpayers expense with the unrealistic expectation that fanatics won't take your money and end up shooting you with it? Honestly, I'd rather not leave this bucket of ***** for my grandkids to mop up.

T.

[Dowding]

So what's the alternative, the ultra-lame 'glass parking lot' cliche?

Terrorists are always a minority - activists of any kind are. They are the zealous types who will bore you to death at parties with a single topic of conversation. I believe that most people in the Mid-East would prefer to just to get on with their lives. Appeal to the majority latter group, the minority have nothing to feed off; no recruitment and no funding.

The IRA was talked to directly, in secret, at a time when the British policy was no negociation (remember the Embassy siege). By bringing them on board, along with greater recognition for Sinn Fein, the radicals (who are every bit as radicalized and zealous as Bin Laden's mob) could be isolated among their own compatriots. This is the way to deal with terrorism.

[Naso]

While I tend to agre with Dowding and Gsholtz opinion on the matter, I think there's something that must be considered in the equation.

Religion.

The terrorists we are used to fight, (RAF, BR, IRA, Basques, or even the original PLO), are mostly political or ethnical based.

Usually some concession in political direction, or some grade of indipendence, will isolate the extremists and win the battle.

With the religion in the equation the thing become more difficult.

A religion is by definition rigid and subject only to slow, century long changes, the twist that the arab terrorism has made towards a war of religion, (even if originally caused by mere economical and political cause) rend the solution quite difficult.

The Osama's plan is quite clear: suck in all the extremists, and eventually, with 9/11, create an opposite almost religious based force in the adversary.

What Bush have in mind is less clear.

Lame excuses apart (WMD, OBL, Free Iraq, and so on), Iraq invasion move can be part of a plan, played on the edge of the blade, to stabilyze the region.

For sure the short term advantage is the *cough* oil

The long term is the possibility to have a strong democracy, a good example (not of the "we will kick you a**" kind) of coexistence of western-like government with that type of religion.

If CIA have the humility to inform Bush (or the future CIC) of the difference between a southern American republic with a Middle East state.

But IMHO there are other moves to take, out of Iraq, 2 big moves of wich I have'nt yet seen traces:

1) Apply pressure on Israel to stop the slow colonization out of official borders and the practical apharteid of not jew religion citizens;

2) Impose a less aggressive stance by the economical forces (multinational companies) toward muslim countries, that (percieved) aggression, using basicly the dollar and a strong cultural colonization, is one of the stronger recruiting advertising  for the extremists.

But theese 2 powers (pro-Israel and economic lobbies) are too strong even for an almost "full powers leader" like your presidential institution.