Spitfire IX overmodeled??

[gripen]

Crumpp,
During that D-day there were not many LW fighter units around because most of the fighters were allocated for defence of the reich. But soon they allocated more to Normandy, June 7th, IIRC 500 sorties and even more later. LW lost something like 600 planes in the first two weeks over Normandy, most of them the were single engined fighters. In the end of June there were more LW single engined fighters in France than in the defence of the Reich. LW was still a dangerous opponent until oil shortage started restcrict operations in autumn. Generally the statement that the Jagdwaffe was depleted by 8th AF is a myth, real reasons are combined pressure on all fronts and fuel shortage.

gripen

[MiloMorai]

The Luftwaffe on the Eve of Overlord, 31 May 44

Luftflotte 3 (Fance, Belgium, Holland)
Unit Type Strength Svcble

Fighters
Stab/JG 2  Fw 190A 3 0
I/JG 2  19 14
II/JG 2  Bf 109G 13 11
III/JG 2  Fw 190A 29 19
Stab/JG 26 2 2
I/JG2  33 23
I/JG 2  32 25
III/JG 26  Bf 109G 37 21

Totals  168 115

Zerstörers
I/ZG 1 Ju 88G 30 25
III/ZG 1 22 12

Totals 52 37

Night-Fighters
Stab/NJG 4 Bf 110G 2 0
I/NJG 4 Ju 88 16 7
II/NJG 4 (Ju 88)/Bf 110G/Do 217 20 12
III/NJG 4 (Do 217)/Bf 110G 18 9
Stab/NJG 5 Bf 110G 15 9
III/NJG 5 18 8
part II/NJG 6 13 11

Totals 102 56

Bombers, Attack Aircraft and Transports
I/KG 2 Ju 188 12 9
II/KG 2 5 0
III/KG 2 Do 217 7 1
Stab/KG 6 Ju 188 1 1
I/KG 6 22 15
II/KG 6 Ju 88A 3 2
III/KG 6 Ju 188 25 5
II/KG 26 Ju 88A 37 27
III/KG 26 35 14
I/KG 30 2 1
part I/KG 40 He 177A 30 21
II/KG 40 30 26
III/KG 40 Fw 200C 29 1
II/KG 51 Me 410 24 17
Stab/KG 54 Ju 88A 1 1
I/KG 54 11 5
III/KG 54 14 8
I/KG 66 Ju 188 31 12
6./KG 76 Ju 88A 12 3
I/KG 77 28 17
II/KG 77 25 8
III/KG 100 Do 217 30 13
III/SG 4 Fw 190 34 29
I/SKG 10 33 19
IV/TG 4 LeO 451 31 13
Korps Transport Staffel 11 4
Ju 52 22 14

Total 551 293




Luftflotte Reich

Unit Type Strength Svcble

Day Fighters
Stab/JG 1 Fw 190A 2 2
I/JG 1 44 (43) 15
II/JG 1 42 20
III/JG 1 48 21
Stab/JG 3 Bf 109G 4 2
I/JG 3 26 9
II/JG 3 29 23
III/JG 3 31 9
IV (St.)/JG 3 Fw 190A 54 1
I/JG 5 Bf 109G 43 36
II/JG 5 44 36
Stab/JG 11 4 3
I/JG 11 Fw 190A 28 20
II/JG 11 Bf 109G 31 14
III/JG 11 Fw 190A 28 11
10./JG 11 Fw 190A/Bf 109G 10 7
Stab/JG 27 Bf 109G 4 4
I/JG 27 4 31
II/JG 27 24 12
III/JG 27 26 20
IV/JG 27 18 12
II/JG 53 31 14
III/JG 54 Fw 190A 23 8
I/JG 400 Me 163B 10 0

Totals 645 330

Zerstörers
II/ZG 1 Bf 110G 33  15
I/ZG 26 Me 410 20 6
II/ZG 26 52 24
III/ZG 26 Me 262 6 1
I/ZG 76 Me 410 47 25
II/ZG 76 Me 410 36 0

Totals 194 71

Wilde Sau (Day and Night Fighters)
Stab/JG 300 Fw 190A 2 1
I/JG 300 Bf 109G 29 19
II/JG 300 Fw 190A 32 24
III/JG 300 Bf 109G 27 25
I/JG 301 25 21
I/JG 302 27 11

Totals 142 101

Night-Fighters
Stab NJG 1 He 219A/Bf 110G 2 1
I/NJG 1 He 219A/Me 410 33 26
II/NJG 1 He 219A/Bf 110G 21 16
III/NJG 1 Bf 110G 17 17
IV/NJG 1 23 14
Stab/NJG 2 Ju 88 4 4
I/NJG 2 31 21
II/NJG 2 33 16
III/NJG 2 28 18
Stab/NJG 3 Ju 88/Bf 110 3 3
I/NJG 3 Bf 110G 26 22
II/NJG 3 Ju 88 37 13
III/NJG 3 Bf 110G 29 20
IV/NJG 3 Ju 88/Bf 110G 32 21
Stab/NJG 5 Bf 110G 3 1
II/NJG 5 19 13
IV/NJG 5 18 12
Stab/NJG 6 2 1
I/NJG 6 Bf 110G/(Do 217) 24 21
II/NJG 6 Bf 110G 10 8
III/NJG 6 18 13
IV/NJG 6 23  18
I/NJG 7 Ju 88 21 9
I/NJG 101 Ju 88/Bf 110 39 39
II/NJG 101 Do 217 38 28
I/NJG 102 Bf 110 39 14
II/NJG 102 19  16
NJGr 10 Various 25  16

Totals 634 421

Bombers, Attack Aircraft and Transports
III/SG 3 Fw 190 28  25
Stab/KG 1 He 177A 2 1
I/KG 1 30 11
II/KG 1 29 0
III/KG 1 30 12
III/KG 3 He 111H 35 21
II/KG 27 15 12
II/KG 77 Ju 88A 31 21
II/KG 100 He 177A 30 0
II/TG 2 Ju 52 12 9

Totals 242 112




Total LW
Serviceable Aircraft Strengths

Single-engined fighters 1063 Twin-engined fighters 151
Night fighters 572
Fighter-bombers 278
Ground-attack aircraft 352
Night harassment aircraft 305
Twin-engined bombers 840 Four-engined bombers 97
Long-range reconaissance aircraft 153
Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 210
Coastal aircraft 123
Transport aircraft 719 Kampfgeschwader 200 (misc. aircraft 65

Totals 4928

[Crumpp]

GScholtz,

Only Luftflotte 3 was in any position to attempt a strike at the landings.  Luftflotte Riech was still engaged with its primary mission of intercepting the bombers. Absolutely NONE of Luftflotte Riech's Aircraft made it anywhere close to the landing zone the entire battle.  All the way through to the breakout at St Lo.

Galland was attempting to rebuild the Luftwaffe.  He actually did it and by hording his forces and training new pilots.  By December of 1944 the Luftwaffe was once again a mighty force.  On paper at least.  It was compromised mostly of very inexperienced pilots who were meat on the table for their allied counterparts and a few "old hats" who were extremely good.  The one operation they conducted as a force they ended up smashing themselves to pieces and never again recovered.

Again 121 sorties vs 14,000 = The Luftwaffe was smashed and could only offer token resistance.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp

Only Luftflotte 3 was in any position to attempt a strike at the landings.  Luftflotte Riech was still engaged with its primary mission of intercepting the bombers. Absolutely NONE of Luftflotte Riech's Aircraft made it anywhere close to the landing zone the entire battle.  All the way through to the breakout at St Lo.

 

Wrong-o.

By June 10 1944,

I.,II., and III./JG1 was based at LeMans, Flers and Beauvais-Tille

I. and II. /JG11 + 10./JG11 based at Rennes St.Jacques and Beauvais-Tille

II., III., and IV(Sturm)./JG3 bases at Evreaux-Fauville, StAndre and Dreux

Stab, I., III. and IV./JG27 based at Romilly-sur-Seine, Rhiems-Champagne and Champfluery

III./JG 54 based at Chartres

All these units came from Luftflotte Reich. Now when was the breakout at St.Lo? Well after D+4 when the LW had extra units in place.

As well as JGr 200 at Avignon.

[GScholz]

Crumpp, you got me mixed up with somebody, I was talking about the BoB.

[Crumpp]

Milo as much as you would like to claim otherwise, The jagdwaffe was defeated by June 6, 1944 and the Allies had air superiority.  The won it with the start of Big Week and kept up enough pressure that the Jagdwaffe couldn't recover it's losses. The contest was over.

For the period 6-30 June 1944 Jagdkorp II had on paper twenty single engine fighter Gruppen in it's two Jagddivisions It's table of organizations strenght was 1300 fighters and pilots; actual strength on the evening of 30 June was 233 airplanes and 419 pilots.  Victory claims totaled 414 against 458 losses.  The entire JagdKorps II flew 10,061 sorties during this period.  Counting pure fighter, fighter bomber, and reconnaissance missions.  The USAAF and the AEAF flew between 120,000 - 140,000 sorties during this period.

Attacks against heavy bomber formations were suspended during this time as there wer not enough fighters to do any significant damage to the bomber formations.  Missions were launched exclusively against enemy fighter bomber and artillery spotters as these presented the greatest threat to the Army.  Loss rates per mission were averaged 20-30 percent.  For every one allied fighter shot down the Luftwaffe was losing three, pilots at a rate of 2 for 1.  

For every mission the Luftwaffe launched, the allies had 11 - 13 missions in the air.

JG26 accounted for 15 percent of the fighter strength of Jagdkorps II and accounted for 30 percent of the kills.  However if you examine the claim sheets you are hard pressed to find any enlisted pilots making claims.  Only guys like Priller, Glunz, and Mietusch seem to reoccur on the sheets.  Examine the casualty list's and the opposite is in effect.  It is filled with NCO and enlisted pilots, Newbies who couldn't fly much less fight.  Almost a 1/3 of them are killed in flying accidents which have nothing to do with combat.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Do you have trouble remembering what you said? Let me refresh your memory:

"Absolutely NONE of Luftflotte Riech's Aircraft made it anywhere close to the landing zone the entire battle. All the way through to the breakout at St Lo."

There was a transfer of 1105 a/c, of which 998 were day fighters, to northern France between June 6 and 7 1944. Now 1105 is an awful lot of NONE.

So tell me again when the breakout from Normandy happened. Surely not before June 10 1944 when units of LuftReich were transferrred to France. You did notice the airfield placenames.

So tell me how did this non-existant LW mount 10061 sorties between June 6 and July 1 1944?



Now tell me again how the 8th AF had smashed the LW by June 1944.

The Luftwaffe on the Eve of Overlord, 31 May 44[/b]

Serviceable Aircraft Strengths

Single-engined fighters 1063


Luftwaffe Order of Battle
10 January 1945

Serviceable Aircraft Strengths

Single-engined fighters 1462

A 25% increase in sevicable a/c.

Luftwaffe Order of Battle
9 April 1945

Serviceable Aircraft Strengths

Single-engined fighters 1305

Still above the May 31 1944 number when you claim the LW was in its death throws.

[Crumpp]

I don't know were you get your numbers.  Mine come from Don Caldwell's JG 26 War Diaries.

Just having forces in the Area doesn't mean a thing.  Did you not understand the data I presented?  

The Luftwaffe launched 10,061 missions against the Normandy Landings in June.  They didn't reach the beachheads!  The allies had 11-13 missions in the air on average to stop them for every one the Luftwaffe had up.  120,000 - 140000 sorties tops 10.061.  

You seem to confuse The numbers a unit is supposed to have, actually has, and what actually works.  This is basic info listed in a status report.  

Whoopi do the Luftwaffe got another 998 single engine dayfighters,  They would have needed 9,998 along with trained pilots to even make a difference.

We can try and experiment in the Arena If you like.  I'll get 10 members of my squad.  One less than the lowest ratio of planes in the air over Normandy...

You take off and try and bomb our airfield.  See how successful you are at 10 to 1 against a known target.

Again, as most historians will atest,  The Luftwaffe was crushed as a viable force by D-Day and the Allies had absolute Air Superiority.  Do you think they would have launched the invasion without it?  Ike was a lot more concerned with the weather and the men manning the Beach defenses than he was the Luftwaffe.

Galland was able though, with the help of Speer to pull off a miracle and rebuild the Luftwaffe by Dec 44.  Numerically they had more planes and pilots than they had in Sept. '39.  However they were a paper tiger at that time as the bulk of them were ridiculously undertrained "Nachtwuchs" or "New Growth".  Hitler squandered all of Gallands hard work by commiting these new reserves to battle before they were ready in "Bodenplatte".  That was the very last gasp of the luftwaffe's death throes.
Crumpp

[Batz]

undertrained "Nachtwuchs" or "New Growth".

umm Nacht = Night you mean Nachwuchs

Nachwuchs = New Generation ie, Newbie

[Slash27]

take some spelling lessons you tard.

kiss my ass.


Storch, in all seriousness. What the **** are you thinking?

[MiloMorai]

No confusion on my part, for the only one that is confused Crumpp is you, as we have seen in another thread. You go off on  tangents like another poster here does.


LW OoB http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LW_OBs.html

You said no a/c came from LuftReich when there was (well before the StLo breakout) and the kaputski LW still managed to mount ~10000sorties in France in 3 weeks of June. Did I say these were effective (dropped bombs, etc on the Allies) sorties?

Maybe you should ask my uncle were those bombs, that almost got him, came from. That was behind the lines.  Well possibly those bombs could have been American 'friendly' fire.

"You seem to confuse The numbers a unit is supposed to have, actually has, and what actually works. This is basic info listed in a status report. "

 No kiddin.

[F4UDOA]

Batz,

Your a moron in any language.

[Crumpp]

So your original contention that the LW was still a viable Air force in June of 1944 is now gone?  You just posted all that junk to correct some that detail...from a true statement that LW planes did not reach the beachheads?

Ok sure. I'll buy that.

Your right I misread the entry in JG26 War Diary.  It was that first week.  However, They could have brought the planes in from the Moon and it wouldn't have mattered.  NONE reached the Beaches.


Here check this out:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj94/mccrabb2.html

Maybe you can come out with more things to say about this subject.   Look real hard cause I bet you can come up with something equally stupid to contest?

Once Doolittle changed the mission of the 8th AF fighters and the Raids were launched that the LW had to intercept it was not long til they lost the war of attrition. A couple of months..Looks like around March of 44?  When did Big Week start?? Feb 19-26th 1944?

Do we want to argue the Statement that within a very short period of time from the start of "Big Week"  the Allies crushed the LW and gained Air Superiority? Seems like a fact not an assumption to me.

.

Now tell me again how the 8th AF had smashed the LW by June 1944.

Any other requests??


That brings up back to Aug '40.

Luftwaffe begins the battle using the same very successful strategy the 8th used in Operation Argument.  Granted the LW had numerical superiority but not on the scale the Allies had over the LW in 1944. Basically the LW used raids the RAF must intercept (Airfield campaign) with fighters that are free to pursue the RAF to the deck in the begining.  The RAF is being destroyed no matter how bad they want to defend their homes by this strategy.  Along comes Goering and does the exact opposite of Doolittle and removes the tactical initiative from the LW fighters.  Now the fighters can't pursue the RAF to the deck but must remain insight of the bombers just like the Allies did until Doolittle changed it.  RAF gets some breathing room.  The balance of the battle shifts to pretty much however wants it more.   The RAF wanted it more than the LW. Then Hitler changes the target to London and now the RAF can pick and choose it's forces to commit.  Even more breathing room for them.  Enough in fact that it is now impossible for the Luftwaffe to win no matter what.

That's how I see it with the facts available.
Please don't even bother to reply Milo-Moran since you want to reduce this to flaming.

I go off on tangents?    

Maybe you need to reread that thread or pass whatever your smokin around.



Crumpp

Thanks Batz....caught it after I hit submit button.

[straffo]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
II., III., and IV(Sturm)./JG3 bases at Evreaux-Fauville, StAndre and Dreux

I disagree with 2 things : it's Eveux* and st André (I'm nitpicking here )



*you can trust me I'm living here


Wtf is your post F4UDOA ???

[Batz]

Batz,

Your a moron in any language.

Maybe, but coming from a clown like yourself I don't put much stock into your opinions.

Your position that "over claiming" was the main reason the LW lost the BoB is just as comical now as when you first posted it. But not quite as funny as your "Allies good with 150 octane, lw bad with their C3 nitrous".

That's hilarious.

And so far you have yet to post any of that web based

outstanding 109 and 190 data.

That other thread where you posted data you couldn't even read it. Like I said, you play an excellent clown.

Now go make me a giraffe balloon animal.