Author Topic: Spitfire IX overmodeled??  (Read 38803 times)

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #375 on: February 06, 2004, 04:00:21 PM »
Crumpp,
Well, so far you have stated many kind of things about historians above and mostly questionable statements like above. Terraine quotes a German historian  K. Klee who states that the alteration of strategy (in the end of 2nd phase) "was absolutely correct in the given situation, frustrated the efforts of the Luftwaffe to force a decision. Fighter Command had certainly suffered heavy losses, but it had not been put out of action."

Note that you have quoted E. Lund, who appear to use what ever data (like kill claims) to supports his agenda despite evident contradictory statements. I have not refered kill claims except by USAAF and in that case only as a indicator of the LW actitivity. Or do you mean that RAF statements on their own strenght are some how biased?

Regarding the LW reserves; I'm still waiting and I quess others too. Actually the planes in the service of  the other luftflottes are not reserves but please give the numbers at least on them (if there was such).

I'm not attempting to place anykind of goals or what ever. It's actually your jobb to prove that the LW could won BoB.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #376 on: February 06, 2004, 05:35:11 PM »
I totally agree with you Angus.  Good assessment.  

To say the LW had no chance to win is stupidity and totally invalidates the Courage and Sacrifice of the RAF pilots.


   Surely Gripen, it is not you contention that Luftflotte 1 and Luftflotte 4 did not exist.  As to them being reserves, The LW wasn't organized like the RAF but I am sure if those planes were needed they would have been thrown into the fray.  The LW did this on many many occasion throught the Second World War.

Here is the Average amount of A/C in a Luftflotte, Gripen.

"The organisation of the Luftwaffe was very different from the Royal Air Force. Whereas the latter had branches based on function, such as Fighter Command, the German Air Force was arranged into air fleets, or Luftflotten, which were self-contained units complete with all fighter, bomber and other elements. The average strength of a Luftflotte was 1,000 aircraft."


That leave the LW with about a 2000 planes that are not engaged in England.

Even the Imperial War Museaum says the LW almost won in September.

 http://www.iwm.org.uk/online/battle%20of%20britain/overview.htm

"The crucial period of the battle was between 24 August and 15 September. Fighter Command came closest to losing when its vital sector airfields around London were attacked. The decisive turning point came on 7 September when the Luftwaffe switched its attention to the capital. This tactical blunder allowed Fighter Command to recover its strength rapidly to inflict, on 15 September, losses significant enough to show the Germans the battle could not be won."

So lets stop presenting a warped view Gripen and accept the fact the RAF pulled off a great victory from an enemy with the capability to beat them.

Crumpp
 
 

 




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Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #377 on: February 06, 2004, 05:37:41 PM »
"The Battle of Britain raged over the skies of southern England throughout that late summer of 1940 - the Luftwaffe lost a total of 1,733 aircraft from July to October, the RAF 915. Had he but known it, Göering was only 24 hours from victory at one point according to British Flight Command. All our reserves were spent and our pilots were exhausted. Incredibly, Göering decided that the Luftwaffe were taking too much of a punishment from the British fighters and he ordered his planes to switch their attention away from the British airfields and towards the British cities. Whilst this was bad news for the civilian populations of the industrial cities, this gave the R.A.F. and the aviation industry a reprieve and a crucial breather to re-arm and re-stock. It also meant that a German invasion of Britain had to be postponed and that Germany was soon to turn its attention eastwards - a decision which was arguably to cost them the war."


http://www.retrosellers.com/features61.htm

Another site...Keep wishing Gripen

Crumpp

Offline Pongo

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #378 on: February 06, 2004, 06:04:42 PM »
Even your own post shows your wrong crump.
Only churhill and those that accept his melodramatic slant could accept that on sept 7th the RAF was at the crux of defeat but by Sept 15th the LW had to accept that they could not win the battle.
The RAF was not close to desperate. Your own numbers show it. Your just babbling 400 posts later.

The RAF probably was happy that the LW had switched to civi targets. But to switch from defeated to undefeateble in 7 days based on that change of tactics is silly.

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #379 on: February 06, 2004, 06:53:25 PM »
Who is churhill?  :rofl

Guess the RAF and the British Imperial War Museum have it wrong and you got it all right Pongo!

You know, It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than than to open it and prove it.

Speaking of idiots, is that you picture under your name or some other.......

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #380 on: February 06, 2004, 07:09:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp


You know, It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than than to open it and prove it.

 


Then why are you still yapping dirt eater?:)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #381 on: February 06, 2004, 07:16:02 PM »
Did anybody hear anything?  :rofl

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #382 on: February 06, 2004, 08:40:20 PM »
This thread should be renamed the "BOB THREAD"!!
Anyway, as much as this has been an argument over numbers and the meaning of numbers, we have to keep in mind the conclusion of what happened in the BoB.
A better view than just numbers may be to put yourselves in the position of the LW & RAF commanders, and also to look at some historical facts. I'll try to make this as short as possible. (hard!)
HERE BEGINS THE ESSAY

The LW tried a campaign which aimed at getting the RAF into the fight and crushing them by force. They had met the RAF in France and done well. They knew that the RAF force in the UK wasn't THAT big. So did the British, - Dowding gave his statement to Churchill about the situation and just so managed to keep what he considered to be a minimal force.
The campaign was rather logical, starting with radar stations, then airfields, then after the RAF would submit, the aim was to paralize shipping and navy ops. (Well, ok, the first phase was basically anti-shipping strikes)
However, after weeks and weeks of fighting, and claims of more than 1xRAF value of British fighters shot down, the RAF seemed to be as strong as ever, and kept shooting down an increasing number of LW planes. Bombing London did also not seem to break the morale (like Warsaw, Rotterdam and such) of the people, but the LW losses just raised streaching that "far" inland.

The RAF with half the force of the LW, less experienced pilots, and a combat doctrine that was somewhat lagging behind (i.e. Vic's vs finger four's), however had some advantages.
Most importantly, the defence system was set up nicely, in a way which was more advanced than the German way (the Germans were actually quite as well advanced in radar techniques). Secondly, the British fighters were of the best quality the Germans had yet met. There was no more an absolute superiority in speed, and the LW could also not benefit from chaos and confusion of an advancing frontline. This was a rather static duel, and now the weapons were equal.

So, The might of the LW was not enough. That was a shock to the Germans, - however the might of the LW was also a shock to the British. The RAF was on its last legs when the battle was directed  towards London, what the RAF did not know was that the LW was very weary as well. After bombing London heavily, the city population was actually on the verge of revolt, - the very much hoped for consequence of sustained bombing by the LW.

However, they did not know that. The RAF could defend London better than themselves (!) From the LW pont of view, all effort was in vain. The British just seemed to learn fast, grow fast, and as a concequence improve their kill rate. A month after the "Adlertag", the last "50" Spits scored better than ever, leaving LW high command in deep thought about how much there was left. They knew their reserves, but failed completely at guessing at the RAF status.

The RAF won the day. The first time that the excellent and mighty LW met a proper and properly controlled air force at only half their size, they had to back off. They got close to succeeding, but they didn't know how close, nor how to follow it up.
The British had a different look upon it. The suffered severe casualties, their capital burned, the RAF almost gave up,  they came close to rebellion. But the score against the LW kept going up. Eventually, the LW concluded that the RAF, or the British for that sake, could not be defeated in a blitz, just kept at bay. They turned to another business. That gave the BOB a definate British victory. And the German assumptions also became their own undoings.

Here endeth the essay
;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Pongo

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #383 on: February 06, 2004, 10:19:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Who is churhill?  :rofl

Guess the RAF and the British Imperial War Museum have it wrong and you got it all right Pongo!

You know, It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than than to open it and prove it.

Speaking of idiots, is that you picture under your name or some other.......

Crumpp


Every other battle in ww2 was a ballance of logisics and tactics and technology and signal intelligance and fighting spirit..But not the Battle of Britian..no it was special.  Because Crump knows that the warrior spirit of the LW failed! The Totem of the RAF was more powerful then the Totem of the LW I guess.

The whole concept that the Battle of Britain was won on Monday but Hitter and the Nasities just had to bomb London so they lost the battle by the following Sunday is just so preposterous.

Wars of attrition between great powers do not hang on the fine a thread Im affraid. It fills some inner nead of yours to think they do.. But if will could have won WW2 it would not have ended the way it did.

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #384 on: February 06, 2004, 10:24:30 PM »
That is some mighty fine babble you got there Pongo.  Pretty new to thinking huh?

Tell me,  Are you as dumb as you want to be? :aok

Great essay Angus.

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #385 on: February 06, 2004, 11:12:26 PM »
Crumpp,
Well, I'm still waiting numbers on the LW reserves. So far nothing relevant. Is there a remote possibility that the reserves actually did not exists? This is actually what E. Lund says; the LW could not keep the strenght of units and had not enough  pilots even for that amount of planes.

gripen

Offline Pongo

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #386 on: February 07, 2004, 03:28:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
That is some mighty fine babble you got there Pongo.  Pretty new to thinking huh?

Tell me,  Are you as dumb as you want to be? :aok

Great essay Angus.

Crumpp

OK ill play crumb
boy you sure are stupid
you sure are one pathetic clown
you musta fell on your head a few too many times

how was that...

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #387 on: February 07, 2004, 06:09:05 AM »
Again I will post it for you,

The LW had other forces to draw upon.  Around 2000 planes in the form of two complete Air Fleets.  I wonder if  they would have withdrawn units from LF 2 and LF3 and replaced them with units of LF1 and LF4 if needed?  NAW, they would have just let the ONLY military action going on at the time just collapse while those other 2 complete Air Fleets hung out and did nothing.

You don't seem to understand the difference between the RAF and the LW. They explain the differences in organization on both the RAF's site AND the Imperial War Museum.

That's a FACT Gripen.  You can't change it.  To play ostrich to the truth and say "Well they didn't label them reserves" is asinine.

Another thing, Gripen just because you say a thing doesn't make it true.  You seem to just throw up data with no attempt to actually look at it.  Your betting that most people will not check it out and actually put some though into it

Here is an example of your untruths..

 
Quote
Well, I'm still waiting numbers on the LW reserves. So far nothing relevant. Is there a remote possibility that the reserves actually did not exists? This is actually what E. Lund says; the LW could not keep the strenght of units and had not enough pilots even for that amount of planes.


OK here is Lunds conclusions:
 
"In the final analysis, perhaps the Germans
could have won. Perhaps, if they had
aggressively pursued either campaign
strategy they could have won, but that will
always remain conjecture."

What is that he is saying...THE LW had the capability to win but pursed the wrong strategy!  Hey, That's what I've been saying!  Now are you going to post another LIE?

I have also posted Imperial War Museum and the RAF's assessment of the situation in September '40 yet you continue to take a contradictory view to even theirs AND claim a fallacy based on numbers that do not support your conclusions.

And along comes Milo-moron and Pongo, What can I say except your gonna need some grazing land for the flock......


BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

 

It's as simple as that.
Crumpp

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #388 on: February 07, 2004, 06:54:55 AM »
Crumpp,
Well, you announced that "As for the LW reserves, that has been proven." Please, show me these reserves, should be easy if the issue is proven. So far you have told just that two Luftflottes were not there. According to your logic the LW had around 2000 aircraft some where but did not use them in BoB. Utterly nonsense.

gripen

Offline MiloMorai

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #389 on: February 07, 2004, 06:58:07 AM »
It is good you produce lots of manure dirt crawler for it will help to fertilize the crops. To bad I don't have a large enough storage area for the amounts you produce.:rofl :)

As for your Big Week crapola,:D:D:D:D. Yup nothing but  the usual 8th AF outrageous claims,.:)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2004, 07:02:08 AM by MiloMorai »