190A8 Tip Stalls....Got a question

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Hey MiloMori...


Your right as I can't POST any attachments in this forum!  The BB won't let me.   lol

I thought you might have figured that out since I mentioned it before.


As to the weight of an MG 151...

400 KG for both weapon, fittings, and ammo is probably about right for a 20 mm.  The barrel on an M2 .50 cal alone weighs 50 pounds.  The whole weapon empty weighs around 85 lbs. The ammo is pretty hefty too. Yeah it makes perfect sense that a 20 mm gun, ammo, hopper, feed mechinism,  with firing system weighs 200 kg each.

Crumpp:aok

You can still post URLs. You did say you took info off the net.


As for the 2 cannon weights,

2(42.3) + 56.0 = 140.6kg or 310lb

Now the ancillary equipement that goes with the cannons does not weigh ~130kg(286lb)/cannon.

400kg = 881lb


LOL, even the 2 H-S 20mm with ammo in the Spitfire only weighs 201.4kg or 444lb

50lb = 22.68kg
85lb = 38.56kg

oops that should be lb = kg (fixed) but that should have been obvious.

[Crumpp]

MiloMorai,


First of all you are correct I got the weight wrong. According to Dietmar Hermann's "Focke Wulf FW 190 Long Nose: An illustrated History of the Fw190D series" on page 81 under the table of weights:

Outer wing armament - 2 x MG151 with 140 rounds/gun = 175 Kg
                                      2 x Mk 108 with 55 rounds/gun = 240 Kg


I didn't see the 2 x and assumed it was for one gun.  Honest mistake.

As for the weights of the M2HB I didn't quote exact weights but the approximate.  HOWEVER I firmly stand by my estimates as being within a few pounds IF not light.  I make my living behind an M2HB.  One is mounted on my GMV at work.  The barrel sure as H--l doesn't weigh 20 lbs.  

As for the Fw-190F8 canopy:  If you go to Batz's white one site you can see the Widened rear portion. Just compare it to any rear picture of a Fw190A. It's not the glass but the triangular piece the canopy itself is mounted in.  This could be effectively widenend without modifiying the fuelage Nor the tracks the canopy rides in.
Here are some of the sites I got this information from:

On the FW-190F8 questions

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html#RTFToC13

And I found a nice site that list's the flight test's of a 190A3 against several marks of spitfire.  

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/VBv190.htm

Crumpp

[Batz]

This image right here is a side by side comparison of the 2 types of canopy:



Here's the caption of these images from White 1

The above photos show a direct comparison of our original early and bubble style canopies. We have overlaid one side of the bubble canopy onto the earlier style canopy so you can see there is quite a difference. We have the early style available, and the bubble style will be available soon. All are remade with the correct thickness plexiglass and all features as original.

On this image you can see the older canopy throw the bulged canopy:



Now what is it you are saying is wider? The canopy rails haven't changed. So the blown canopy can't be wider. As you can plainly see it is "taller".

[Crumpp]

I don't think they are talking about the clear portion of the canopy.  If you read the information on the first link I provided it cleary states the RLM made the cockpit wider.  On the White 1 site there is an excellent view from the rear of the triangular shape portion of the canopy the clear glazing is mounted in.  The piece that actually rides in the rails mounted to the fuselage. It appears wider than a standard Anton canopy.  This could have been done and the same clear portion used as on a standard Anton.  It would be mounted much higher (more metal) than a normal canopy frame and with the bulged canopy the pilot could rise even higher in the seats adjustments.

The text I've read about the F series clearly states the canopy was made wider AND in later models a bulged canopy was added.  It also states that not all F8's were made to the same standard.  Some were just A8's with hardpoints.

Crumpp

[Batz]

The 109f8 didn't have a "widened" cockpit.

Heres pics of white 1





Notice no side armor

From the owner, Dr.Mark Timken

Presently we are proceeding with manufacturing parts for the 190 and for the 801 engine. The canopy has just been formed-in fact we are doing both styles, and the bubble canopy will be made next. The canopy magnesium attaching bracket is being recast in Germany, and all related hardware is finished for the reassembly of the canopy. It is virtually an exact duplicate of the original canopy.

Both canopies fit in the existing rails

Early canopy

[Crumpp]

See the wedge shaped piece of metal the clear portion of the canopy sets in...THAT is what I think they are talking about on the website link I posted when they say the cockpit canopy was widened.  PLEASE read my posts before you dispute them outright.  Thank you though for posting the picture of white 1 from the rear.  I had trouble finding it after I posted the link.

I don't think its talking about the clear portion of the canopy!  The Bulged canopy was a late war canopy that both the ALL 190's could use.

No side armour points to White 1 being an A8 with hardpoints as some of the 190F8's were or the pilot had the armour removed.

Crumpp

[Batz]

All f8s were based on the a8 airframe, F-3s on the a5, early F's on the a4.

But white 1 was not a converted F8 from an earlier airframe like the NASM F-8

As one of the authors of the history and service life of White 1 I can assure you that W.Nr. 931862 ws originally built as an F-8, as evidenced by original manufacturers sheets.

F-1 through F-8 versions had been designed, but only the F-1, F-2, F-3, and F-8 were built in any quantity, with the largest share consisting of F-8's. In all, around 550 of the F series were built. Approximately 385 were the F-8 variant.

F-8 production began around March 1944. Defining features are typically based upon the A-8, with 115 liter fuselage tank, outboard pitot, FuG16ZY or ZS and possibly an FuG 25 radio, ETC 501 center fuselage stores rack, and the added ETC 50 or later ETC 71 under wing stores racks, with either standard or later style bubble canopy. Outboard cannon were deleted.

When the luftwaffe gave up on the G version of the FW some G-8s were converted to F-8s. Some F-8s were rebuilt from damaged and older airframes (like NASM). So there was some variety.

You have made several claims about a "widened cockpit".

the reason the 190F's had the bulged canopy. It was needed to accomodate the additional pilot armour!

the F8 canopy to improve FORWARD vision that was so important to ground attack missions. Bulging the canopy doesn't do that much for your forward vision. This was done to make room for the pilots larger/higher armour plate.

The bulged canopy is somewhat similiar to the bubble canopy  on some allied planes had late in the war. If you look at the early canopy the sides lean in as they go up then angle. The bulged canopy had less of the inward lean and went up higher. So it was higher and wider in terms of head room but it fit into the same rails as the early canopy. There was no side bulging like in some RAF canopies.

I don't think its talking about the clear portion of the canopy!

Yes it is, as I explained it above.

[Crumpp]

Darn Batz!!

All f8s were based on the a8 airframe, F-3s on the a5, early F's on the a4.

All 190's were designed to use as much of the same components as possible.  Kurt Tank designed them this way.

You seem to think I am disputing that some FW-190F8's were the exactly like A8's.  Again read my post's I say multiple times that late war F8's were exactly like A8's.  Yes they were purposely built as F8's.  Just as every Dora was built from an A8 frame but roll out of the factory as Dora's!

When the luftwaffe gave up on the G version of the FW some G-8s were converted to F-8s. Some F-8s were rebuilt from damaged and older airframes (like NASM). So there was some variety.

 

The Luftwaffe gave up on the G series with the G10 development due to the military situation.  You've got it backwards....FW-190F8's and FW-190G-3 airframes were converted to FW-190G8's.  At least according to "Luftwaffe Profile series Number 4 Focke-Wulf FW-190".

The bulged canopy had less of the inward lean and went up higher.

It's obvious you haven't even looked at the link I provided.  It doesn't say the canopy was made higher.  It does say it was made wider.  

Crumpp

[Batz]

Wrong again, when the G series were brought to an end, the F8/U1 took the long-range deep penetration jabo role from them, having the same load out variety as the G-8. When the G series were brought to an end, many G8s were converted to F8/U1s.

The G series was discontinued because the long-range jabo role wasn't a priority by 1944 due to the strategic situation not because of the g10.

White 1 being an A8 with hard points as some of the 190F8's

It is you who are differentiating between A-8s and F-8s by claiming the above. "an A-8 with hard points".

I have read your web link and I have also traded emails with few folks. When White 1 says they are going to do both canopies (as I quoted the owner as saying above) they will use the same attaching bracket and rails. It would stand to reason if your most recent claim is correct that the 2 canopies would require 2 different attachments and/or rails. Neither is the case. In fact the "widening" comes from just as I described in my last thread.

You can look at the side images of the 2 canopies and see one is clearly taller.

[Batz]

I am only about 3 hours from Kissimmee (where white 1 is being restored) As soon as I have time I will take tour and get deffinitive answers.

[Crumpp]

Do you have "The Luftwaffe Profile series No. 4"?  If you do then please look on page 37-38 under the G8 paragraph.


If you don't have it give me your email addy and I will scan it in and send it to you.  

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

When will HTC give us the "Grosse Bombenelektrik" for our F8's??
Be nice to be able to release all our stores at once or be able to carry both a drop tank AND two 250 kg bombs on the center hardpoint.
Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Be nice to be able to release all our stores at once or be able to carry both a drop tank AND two 250 kg bombs on the center hardpoint.
Crumpp

And what R or U was that?

centreline options were:

1- ETC501 and bomb

or

2- ETC501 and drop tank

or

3- ETC501/504 with ER-4(4-50kg)

[Crumpp]

FW-190F8 - Umrustsatz 1.......
Correction:
Drop tanks on the wing and 250 Kg bomb centerline.

Still would like to the see the ability to drop all stores at once.

Crumpp

Sleep better now?  

[Batz]

The F-8/U1 was the F-series equivalent to the G-8. There are some sources that claim the F-8/U1 was a trainer.