Author Topic: 190A8 Tip Stalls....Got a question (Read 6293 times)

Crumpp · « **on:** January 19, 2004, 02:44:42 PM »

The 190's in AH seem to tip stall quite a bit. No doubt the Wurger had a nasty stall but I was curious where HiTech got their data for the 190A8 which seems to the worst of all the 190's.

Several days ago I picked up a copy of Dietmar Hermann's new book on the FW-190A. It's a Schiffer Military History and his second book on the FW-190D9 was the best aircraft history I have ever read.
His book on the 190A is a great follow up but concentrates mostly on the Kurt Tanks Test design team the the Focke-Wulf test pilots. One detail struck me when I read it.

On page 94 in Hauptmann Gollob's report of the Test Flights of a 190A2 vs a 109F4 he states:

"Great care must be taken when the factory adjust the alerion push rods. Improper setting of the adjustments or unequal mounting of the tips results in alerion vibration at certain speeds and leads to premature stalling in turns."

He goes on to recommend additonal training for 190 Ground crews so that they can correct the problem when it occurs.

In Peter Cayhill's book "Combat Legend Focke-Wulf FW 190" he reprints both the RAF's test flight of OberLt Armin Faber's 190A3 and the USAAF test flight of a captured 190G in Italy. The RAF report makes no mention of the excessive vibration during turns. It is specifically mentioned in the USAAF report along with the "easy and nasty" stall of the 190.

Since the Luftwaffe reports do not mention any nasty vibration or "easy" stall in a turn nor do the RAF flights...
It is pure conjecture but I think the USAAF test bird had alerions out of adjustment. Since this is one of the only surviving detailed reports of a later model Anton's flight characteristics I have to wonder If HiTech din't use it as the basis for the 190A8's handling.

Flame Away!

Crumpp

eskimo2 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 19, 2004, 07:53:54 PM »

Never try to turn a FW 190-A8.

eskimo

joeblogs · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2004, 08:06:48 PM »

It says right there on the dash board - "Do not turn."

-Blogs

Crumpp · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2004, 08:20:43 PM »

Thanks....Now does anybody have an Answer on where Hitech got their data on the 190A8's?

Crumpp:rolleyes:

flakbait · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2004, 01:51:33 PM »

It's actually an accelerated stall. As the prop turns it sends back a spiral of air across the wings. One wing will have airflow coming down on top, while the other will have a strong blast coming up from underneath. The side that has prop-blast coming up underneath it will stall first since it doesn't have that surplus airflow. This becomes a bigger problem when you reef the aircraft into a tight turn. The harder you turn, the harder it is for the airflow to "stick" to the wing. When you turn so hard that the air moving over the wing "unsticks", the wing will stall and drop. Some aircraft are worse than others in accelerated stalls due to wing design. An aircraft with a stable wing, like a Spit's eliptical-shaped wing, won't have that hard snap-stall. But the Fw has a 2x4 wing and a somewhat high wingloading. As a result, it'll really pop around during an accelerated stall.

Just be careful with it and don't flat-turn it. Use Yo-Yos and a lot of vertical or roll-based maneuvers and you'll hardly have to worry about it.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High

GODO · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2004, 01:59:22 PM »

190A8 is a bad turner, but 190F8 is a plain b#tch.

Batz · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2004, 02:13:52 PM »

the f8 is no worse then the a8.

Flyboy · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2004, 02:28:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
the f8 is no worse then the a8.

that reminds me.... i have no idea "what is" the 190f8?

can someone shed some light on this plane?

Crumpp · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2004, 02:59:22 PM »

The FW190F8 is a ground attack version that superceded the FW-190G.

The FW190F8 was a very late war varient specifically designed for "Schlachtflieger" fast attack units and "Stukageschwader" units as a replacement for the Stuka Dive bomber.

The FW190G came into service before the F8 and was a long range ground attack varient. It was lightenend as much as possible and extra fuel tankage added.

The FW190F8 carried around 895 KG of extra armour and added drag from hardpoints. Rudel described it as a "beast" to take off when loaded with ordinance for a mission.

Crumpp

GODO · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2004, 03:03:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
the f8 is no worse then the a8.

Offline, 50% fuel in both cases, 190A8 with 2x20mm. Accelerating to 300mph IAS at 5k and then performing a 180 dgr turn while keeping WEP and trying to keep the tightest turn without stalling. 190A8 ends the turns at 250/240 mph, F8 at 220/210 and most of the times stalls at the end. I feel definitively the F8 heavier than A8.

Batz · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2004, 04:29:49 PM »

I have many of hours in the AH f8, my squad mate and I were getting 100+ kills per tour in the f8 most a2a. That was back when I still flew AH and in particular the FW series.

I don't know about the validity of your tests but from ht's charts they perform identical. From my experience it was no better or worse then the F8.

AH Normal loaded weight
F8 weight 9849 lbs.
A8 weight 9682 lbs.

FB take off weight
F8 4,150 kg, 4270 (9414 lbs) with the 115-liter back tank
A8 4,250 kg, 4,360 kg (9612 lbs) with the 115-liter internal tank

The 109f8 did not have 1973 lbs (895 KG) of "extra" armor. That may be total armor weight. I had charts showing the "armor" weight and placement for both the a8 and f8. I had posted them several times before on this bbs but my HD failed and I no longer have them. I can't recall off hand the exact weight but IIRC there was very little difference the 2. The f8 had a 5mm plate on the underside of the eng to protect against small arms ground fire.

Brady and I are planning a scenario for AH that is based on the fighting in Kurland late in the war. I have several books that contain pilot accounts from SG3 and SG4 that flew as many as 6 sorties a day in their F8. One particular account is of 2 pilots who knocked out 7 tanks in a column using bombs and rockets. They praise the low alt speed. On ingress they would fly low 500m or so then as they approached climbed to 1000m and would put the target on their left. For the attack they climbed to 1500m and made a shallow dive and dropped their 250kg bomb on the front of the column then circled around and used their rockets. Then they made their egress at full power and C3 injection.

The 190F8 used "C3 injection" (erhöhte Notleistung) like in the "A series" but was only used in the low supercharger gear, but not in the second stage and was limited to below 1000m. The F8s would hit and run before the VVS could vector in interceptors. Incidentally La7s and Yak-3 were placed at front lines fields to intercept the fast jabos.

edit: Heres an image of my career scores when I flew the FW. Just to show I am not speaking out my arse. FYI I was a furballer not a strat guy and most sorties never went above 10k...

Crumpp · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2004, 05:49:20 PM »

Please post them cause I would really like to see your data.

To quote one site: This came about not only as a result of the additional bombs load, but due to the need to introduce additional armor to protect the plane from ground fire. This armor consisted of plates protecting the fuel tanks, engine and undercarriage firings from below. Previously planned armor plates in the cockpit side walls were abandoned. This decision was made because the worsening overweight condition lead to a marked performance reduction. For the same reason, new strengthened undercarriage struts were not introduced, instead the pressure in shock absorbers was increased. In connection with the mass production of the Fw 190A fighter aircraft, early development work on the attack version was restricted to A-3, A-4 and A-5 airframe modifications. These planes, already introduced in Luftwaffe service units, were fully suited to fighter-bomber tasks. However, the increased weight forced a reduction the armament suite (removal of the one pair of wing mounted MG FF cannons), that could result in only slightly poorer performance in spite of increased weight."

This particular article goes on to say that many FW-190F8 pilots had the extra armour removed AND that late in the war F8's were produced with NO extra Armour but were simply A8's with added hardpoints.

Crumpp · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2004, 05:54:02 PM »

oops hit the wrong button!!

That is the weight of the extra armour added. In fact 400 kg of weight was saved by removing the outer cannons and ammo.

To finish my post:

We are both right on the F-8.

It still doesn't answer my question on where HTC got their data on the A8 nor why it tip stalls so quickly.

Crumpp

Batz · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2004, 07:32:39 PM »

Early production F8s had additional armor (same as the F3). To reduce weight the additional armor was dropped from production.

These had the standard the A8 armor and the under-fuselage ETC 501 bomb rack but without the stabilizers for the droppable fuel tank.

IIRC on the underside of the eng starting from the oil cooler armored ring moving aft to under the eng, pilot seat and ending under the aft fuel tank ran either 5 or 6mm plate. Along the eng area it "wrapped" up a bit on the sides. It was called the "panzer ring".

As I said there's very little difference in the F8 and A8. The Ah F8 paint scheme is based on the NASM F8, which incidentally was rebuilt from a damaged a7 airframe.

Unfortunately I lost those images when my HD crashed. I will ask on another forum if someone else has them.

GODO · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2004, 08:04:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
Iedit: Heres an image of my career scores when I flew the FW. Just to show I am not speaking out my arse.

I didnt even insinuate you may be speaking out of your arse, but perhaps near 8000 kills in Fws mean I'm not speaking out of my arse alsocareer.

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