Author Topic: Canadian communism - Loni must die.  (Read 2775 times)

Offline vorticon

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Canadian communism - Loni must die.
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2004, 11:40:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
100% capitalism is good. It means no coersion whatsoever - only free choice of people commiting voluntary transactions. Except for ordinary crime, of course - which is present in any society.

 Any ratio of capitalism/socialism is not stable. Socialism must necessarily expand or be actively reduced.

 miko


100% captilism is bad...if america was a pure capitalist state every company would have been bought out by the rockerfellers or under mafia rule...even a kids lemonade stand would be paying for either "protection" or get payed 5 bucks to stop competing...pure capitalism is completly unstable...you need some government control otherwise it will all go belly up...

"I can see why someone would believe that my ethical standards differ from his, but to make a claim that I have none? Does that mean you only believe that your set of ethical standards is valid and everybody else's is false and thus non-existent?"
nope...just seemed that way from how you dont care about peoples motives...as long as it furthers capitalism

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2004, 12:02:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
What's your point? You seem to be proving my claims while you sound like you oppose them.
 The probems you cite are examples of lack of capitalism and too much state intervenion in economy.
 If there was a free market for donor organs, there would not be as much illegal activity surrounding it. Like in any other product.


FREE MARKET FOR DONOR ORGANS!?!?!

Miko, you probably misunderstood what I wrote. The poor Moldavian guy lost his kidney because some Turkish "businessman" lied to him and made him sign papers that he didn't understand. It looked like a "fair donation". It isn't about free market. You see, Turkish laws allow such donations, and that's why some rich Western ar$e coes there, pays $$$$$ and gets a kidney stolen from a poor young unemployed Moldavian.

I find Canadian laws quite reasonable. They are definetly made to prevent such crimes. OK, let the girl go to Turkey and PAY for the kidney stolen from someone, this will be your beloved capitalism.

What? She doesn't have enough money to pay for a criminal operation? She wants her security to cover surgery? Damn commies always want something for free! Then sit down, relax and wait for your luck.

This is the bloody difference between two systems. Every system has advantages and drawbacks, but IMHO you can easily see the moral side of the story.

I am not a big fan of "socialism" even in it's Sweedish version, but I honestly believe that medical treatment must be free for all and unconditionaly equal for janitor and a president.

I see a difference between former Soviet medicine and what we have here now. I am lucky that my Father gets what he could get in Soviet times- he is a Veteran and a retired officer, and I see "public" medical treatment that is interested in killing you ASAP so you'll not bother them anymore and "commercial" clinics that never cure you so they can leech your money forever.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2004, 12:14:34 PM »
vorticon: 100% captilism is bad...if america was a pure capitalist state every company would have been bought out by the rockerfellers or under mafia rule...even a kids lemonade stand would be paying for either "protection" or get payed 5 bucks to stop competing...

 Every company woudl not have been bough by anyone. The wealth accumulated under pure capitalism is received in return for providing equal or greater value to the consumers, by offering a better choice than competition.
 If the rockerfellers can provide better goods than anyone else, they will not need to buy anyone out - the compatition would go bancrupt anyway. If they do not provide better goods, then they will be at risk of going bancrupt and be bought out by competition.

 Crime and mafia is even more prevalent in socialist societies that in capitalist ones - and there is much less that can be done to avoid their influence in a socialist society.

pure capitalism is completly unstable...you need some government control otherwise it will all go belly up...

 Government control inevitably ends up in the hands of scoundrels that ponder to the lowest instincts of the mob. How could it be better or more stable than every person making decisions for himself and bearing full responcibility for it?
 Societies grow and prosper under capitalism and go belly up under socialism. That "otherwise it will all go belly up" you scare us with has never happened in history.
 All the examples of societies going bust are results of state intervention - even if it's presented by ignorant or dishonest people as the failure of capitalism itself.


nope...just seemed that way from how you dont care about peoples motives...as long as it furthers capitalism

 You sound self-contradictory. If a "capitalism" is a separate cause that can be "furthered", then I am not selfish. If I am selfish, then I would not be furthering any cause.

 Capitalism is not a political movement or a philosophy. It's the state of the maximum personal freedom. Capitalists do not cooperate - they compete. Nobody would like to curtail capitalism and avoid competition trough the use of government regolations than established capitalists.
 It's not wealthy that benefit from capitalism most - in fact the wealthy capitalists are at risk to lose their fortunes if they make a bad decision in satisfying our wants.
 It's poor people who benefit by having an opportunity to advance and by being provided with ever-increasing supply of products.
 Rich people were fine in all millenia before capitalism originated. Socialist societies are full of rich people, only wealth there takes different forms and social mobility is greatly diminished.

 Some people prefer to be free and some prefer to be slaves - and foolishly expect safety and sustenance in return for slavery.

 It has nothing to do with personal desire for wealth or power. Being resourcefull an intelligent, I and my children can and will reach wealth, power and influence in any kind of society. I will be on top if we have a communist state, a free market capitalism or an islamic theocracy.

 I just prefer to do it in a free non-coercive way by offering people better choices than a compatition can - rather than rely on fooling the majority and then relying on government coercion to heve them do my bidding.

 You seem to have some trust in the elected scoundrels and non-elected judges and bureaucrats that they will make your life better at the expanse of someone productive. Sure, it can last for a while. But not forever. Overexploited people stop producing.

 Canadian system is much less stable one than even the US system - with much greater debt to income ratio. You are living beyong your means and borrowing unsustainably and you are the one talking about stability...
 Just because you do not go bankrupt this year, does not mean your system is stable in principle.

 miko

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2004, 12:26:09 PM »
"Every company woudl not have been bough by anyone. The wealth accumulated under pure capitalism is received in return for providing equal or greater value to the consumers, by offering a better choice than competition.
If the rockerfellers can provide better goods than anyone else, they will not need to buy anyone out - the compatition would go bancrupt anyway. If they do not provide better goods, then they will be at risk of going bancrupt and be bought out by competition.  "

the reason why there buying them out is to maximize there own profits and gain control over there warehouses/producer/retail outlets...its to gain complete control over the entire supply chain...if there goods are worse than the competitions but they have enough money to buy them out...they will...


the fact that you dont seem to know who the rockerfellers were indicates that you havent payed much attention to american history...i suggest you learn some before coming on here...while your at it see if you can learn up some canadian history...or at least some canadian policy (you can find plenty at http://www.gc.ca)

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2004, 09:16:56 PM »
Yes she takes her chances like the rest of us. Getting an organ is not a popularity test nor a luxury going to the highest bidder.
Our system seems perfect to me.

Offline Ping

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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2004, 06:30:54 AM »
I wouldn't say perfect, but there should be some standards in the trafficking of Human Organs.
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2004, 06:48:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Does that mean you only believe that your set of ethical standards is valid and everybody else's is false and thus non-existent?


You can apply that to alot of what you write Miko. That my friend, is a two way street. I agree with you on the fact she should get her organ, if someone wants to donate one to save her life, she should get it. But under your 100% capitalism, people would get organs based on their wealth, not their need. The wealthy could buy up all the organs and sell them to the highest bidder. And if you think it should be that way, well, then there is no need to further discuss it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 06:54:26 AM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Frogm4n

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Canadian communism - Loni must die.
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2004, 09:52:16 AM »
dude miko... have you ever studied what happened in the late 19th century in american buisness. The same reasons socialism goes bad are the same reason capitilism goes bad. sure 50/50 is unstable, but at least we dont have sweat shops, owned by a compan, and we are free to choose what we want to do with our lives.

Offline miko2d

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Canadian communism - Loni must die.
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2004, 10:13:41 AM »
Sixpence: You can apply that to alot of what you write Miko. That my friend, is a two way street. I agree with you on the fact she should get her organ, if someone wants to donate one to save her life, she should get it. But under your 100% capitalism, people would get organs based on their wealth, not their need.


 One significant correction. Not capitalism but freedom. Free market capitalism is just a natural result of a society based on freedom and security in body and property.

  As for wealth, what's wrong with wealth anyway? In a free society wealth is accumulated by providing an equal or greater amount of value to other people. Once you benefit a lot of people greatly, you end up with a lot of wealth. Why should not one be able to spend that wealth as he sees fit?

 Otherwise you would be correct in theory. A free society does not guaranee anyone equality of an outcome or even equality of opportunities. Only freedom to advance to the full expent of one's abilities by serving others in a coercion-free markertplace.

The wealthy could buy up all the organs and sell them to the highest bidder.

 That is noncence. The supply increases with price, so as the need for organs increases the supply increases too.
 Why would the wealthy buy up the organs and sell them to the highest bidder? Why would not the donors sell them to the highest bidders directly, through e-bay or whichever way they prefer?
 Why would a poor but smart entrepreneur with not a cent of his own money borrow from the bank and establish a business brockering the organs - receiving tiny spread (kept low by competition) to benefit both donors and recepients?
 The rich person could buy an organ for a poor recepient.

 Whichever form it takes, we know that there would be more organs donated if the price reflects the market and more people saved - rich or poor. Poor people will still have insurance, or charity to buy the organs - just like they are not left without healthcare now.

 With the current system the government bureaucrat decides who gets the organs, the supply is much lower than it could be - as any product would be if its price was kept at zero or even negative (in Canada a donor would apparently get not a reward for his organ but a legal punishment).
 People die unncesarity - mostly poor who could have been helped through donations. Rich and politically-connected find the ways to get their organs.

 So your ethics apparently says "Let many people - especially poor - die unnecesarily as long as there is no apparent benefit to the wealthy people that I envy".
 You would rather see many innocent people hurt than see one wealthy person benefit. Though you do not mind if an exeedingly wealthy person, especially one willing to commit an illgal or immoral act (use black market where organs are not always voluntarily donated or avoid the laws of your country by having a procedure elsewhere) would benefit as long as you can pretend not to notice it.

 You propose using violence an coercion to prevent people from making a mutually-beneficial transaction with no benefit whatsoever to anyone other than sparing your twisted sensibilities. Basically, you are willing to kill people by denying them life for your religious beliefs.
 You would kill thousands of people every year in a slight hope that you would also kill a few wealthy men (or their children) in the process.
 
 That is atrocious.

 I would still be willing to discuss things with you despite your ghoulish inclinations, not being a narrow-minded exclusionary zealot, but if you don't want to - feel free to put me on ignore.

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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Canadian communism - Loni must die.
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2004, 12:08:38 PM »
So you think the wealthy get the organs and not the based on need, that's all you had to say. Enough said.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline RTR

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Canadian communism - Loni must die.
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2004, 12:22:10 PM »
Hooooboy.

Of course this is all tied to BSE somehow, but I just haven't figured out how yet.

The cows are revolting too.

"Let freedom MOOO....let freedom MOOO...let freedom MOOO!"

http://www.shagrat.net/Html/cows.htm

RTR
There's a damn conspiracy hiding behind every tree I tell ya!
The Damned

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2004, 01:31:55 PM »
Sixpence: So you think the wealthy get the organs and not the based on need, that's all you had to say. Enough said.

 So you think weathy should not be able to buy organs for those in need and you would rather see no donations occur and poor needy people die than have a transplant financed by charity.

 And even if someone got wealthy by providing customers with a necessary (life-saving?) product, I do not mind if he gets to buy a kidney from a donor who would not have otherwise donated it.

 So far all your statements are negative. You prefer people to die just to make you feel better. You do not propose any alternative for securing organs for the needy.
 My suggestion would not deny an organ to anyone who would currently get it. Everybody would be just as free to mark "donate" on his driver license so that doctors could dispose of his cadaver as they see fit.
 The policies you endorce deny organs to tens of thousands every year by limiting the supply.

 For a guy claiming "there is no need to further discuss it" or "enough said" you sure are a verbose poster. You may wish reconsider talking to me or posting those sillies.

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2004, 03:19:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
So you think weathy should not be able to buy organs for those in need and you would rather see no donations occur and poor needy people die than have a transplant financed by charity.

miko


No Miko, this is what I am saying. You have 2 people who need the same organ, one has 6 months to live, the other has 6 days to live. The person with 6 months to live comes from wealth, and can offer more money for the organ. The person with 6 days to live has been waiting for the organ longer, but is very poor.

My belief is that you say the wealth gets the organ, I do not see it that way.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline miko2d

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Canadian communism - Loni must die.
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2004, 03:40:05 PM »
Sixpence: No Miko, this is what I am saying. You have 2 people who need the same organ, one has 6 months to live, the other has 6 days to live. The person with 6 months to live comes from wealth, and can offer more money for the organ. The person with 6 days to live has been waiting for the organ longer, but is very poor.

My belief is that you say the wealth gets the organ, I do not see it that way.


 I never said that. When one of us dies in an accuident, his body is delivered to the nearest hospital and if the donor checkbox is set, the organs are used for the neadiest person nearby - since the organs cannot be stored and transported for long.
 That is not going anywhere. Never said that anyone would have the power to outlaw it. Nothing will change here absolutely.

  Righ now the only supply of organs is from cadavers who checked the donation box and rare voluntary donors helping the people they know. Neither of those is likely to change his/her mind about donation just beause there is a market for them.
 I am not less likely to donate a car or a house to charity after my death or while alive just because there is a market for houses and cars and I can sell it for cash.


 Now with my system in addition to the organ transplants happening above, being able to offer money to a live donor - who may even have three kidneys, which occasonally occurs - or a relatives of a dead peroson who has not checked his donor card, or to a dying man who has not done so - you will have a completely new supply of organs that woudl benefit people without affecting the regular recepients.

 The prices do not even have to be high - especially when it comes to money offered to the relatives of the deceased. And as the supply increases, the prices will drop and the black market and atrociois crime of organ procuring would stop.

 A young healthy person may take a chance of living with one kidney for a $100,000 or even more while another person will have his life saved for that amount.
 A person dying from some desease may decide to sell a healthy organ - while alive or after death - to leave money to his family.

 Ownership of one's own body is a pretty basic natural righy. Forbidding peeple to dispose of it is a very great intrusion on the government's part.


 So in your example a person with 6 days to live will get an organ but a wealthy person with 6 months to live may be able to find a willing donor somewhere and have his life saved too with a completely different organ that would not become available otherwise.
 That will release a place in line for another poor person who has 7 months to live.

 miko
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 03:42:57 PM by miko2d »

Offline rpm

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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2004, 03:41:53 PM »
Miko...is there ANYTHING about North America you like? Nothing personal, but if it's so bad, why not move?:confused:
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.