Author Topic: Exploring P-38 agility  (Read 6663 times)

Offline Widewing

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Exploring P-38 agility
« on: January 25, 2004, 01:18:05 AM »
Over the course of 2+ years, I haven't flown the P-38 very often. When I do, I have no problem maintaining a reasonable K/D in it despite the fact that I was using it as a Jabo (27/4 over the past three tours).

This tour I wanted to explore its performance under controlled circumstances. So, I have been spending time in the DA and TA (mostly in the DA) learning every facet that I can discover. So, over the course of this tour, I spent about 50% of my online time in the DA and TA learning this complex and difficult fighter.

Much of what I learned surprised me.

I have flown guns on and off dogfights against most of the main rides in the MA, including the Spit IX, La-7, Yak-9U, P-51D and N1K2. I spent at least 10 minutes chasing S2F's Wildcat around as well. Most of the pilots I played tag with were of average or slightly better than average skills. Since this was what we generally encounter in the MA, I wasn't put off by it.

In the case of the F4F-4, it's lack of power means that the vertical regime is difficult to fight in. Once I got behind the Wildcat, there was nothing it could do to shake the big Lightning. S2F tried every possible maneuver, but the P-38 remained on his tail. Thanks to awesome rudder authority, low speed rolling was no problem. I trimmed the plane for full flaps, requiring a touch of forward pressure when speeds exceeded 200 mph (the flaps blow up, so the pressure eases on its own). It took some experimentation to find the best trim settings, but once I had them pegged, the P-38 responded better than I could have hoped for.

As for the speed demons of the plane set, any attempt at a maneuver fight against the Lightning quickly degrades into a bug-out by the hotrod. Either run or get clobbered. Two La-7s augered from high-speed dives trying to get away, only to find that damned P-38 right on their tails. With combat trim off, the speed boards work as advertised.

A couple of Co-E, Co-alt brawls with Yak-9Us revealed to me that guys flying these things figure they can out-turn the Lightning... They figured wrong. After a couple of hard turns, their airspeed was below 250 mph - a place you don't want to be with a P-38 close by. Down come the flaps (that's a nice feature of a HOTAS set up, flap buttons on the stick), and the fight goes close and personal. It wasn't long before the Yak's poor low-speed handling became a major liability. In each case, they then tried to go vertical. Another mistake.

Fights with the dreaded Spit IX were a revelation for both me and the Spit driver. Its only real advantage is in a sustained turn, essentially a Lufberry. Yet, even that advantage is fleeting if you use the Lightning's powerful rudders and torque-free characteristics properly to get in a shot. Should the fight continue for a long time, the Spit's chances improve somewhat. However, in each case, the fights didn't last long enough.

Fights with the N1K2 were very much like those with the Spits. One guy tried a scissors to shake me. Again, the awesome rudder authority allows for a flat skidding turn and the Niki was an easy target. Another niki jock was stunned to watch the big Lightning follow him through a series of low-speed loops. If he had ever seen Leviathn's P-38 film, he would have realized that the P-38 can loop endlessly.

Fights with 109s proved interesting. None of the post 109E type can hang with the P-38 at low speeds. The best turner being the 109F, which simply can't maintain enough speed to fight effectively enough in the vertical plane. The G models were good to excellent in the vertical, but not quite good enough, and turnfighting with a P-38 is death. Indeed, they really need to stay fast. Every 109 driver encountered wanted to fight in vertical. Again, at Co-E. Co-alt that's a problem for them. I would argue that the P-38 is the best vertical fighter in the game. Some guy, frustrated at having his Typhoon abused, grabbed a Spit XIV, only to discover that its vicious torque was a real handicap. I also flew against other P-38s. Quite honestly tho, not one of these guys had a clue how use the Lightning. With one fellow, we played a fun game. Each spawns their fighter on opposite end of the runway, we taxi mid way down the runway until nose to nose. On the count of 3, throttles are firewalled. Once airborne, the fight is on. He tried Spits, 109s, the 202, La-7 and even the Tempest. The result was the same. My P-38 was on him before he could get up and reverse. Eventually, he switched to a Zero. He never did understand how the big P-38 could get airborne, climb 200 feet and reverse before he could get his Zeke up and reverse. Each try netted the same result.... Bullets slamming into his cockpit. He even tried full flaps on takeoff. No improvement. It's all about power loading and torque free low-speed handling. Nothing in this game can match the P-38 in that regard. Sure, the Zeke can turn tighter circles, its problem is that it turns very tight, but very SLOW turns as it hasn't the power to accelerate to speed quickly. The P-38 has the advantage of not only getting airborne quickly with full flaps, it can immediately pull into a high yo-yo. The Zeke can pull into a high yo-yo as well, it just takes several seconds longer to get around. Going to just 25% fuel helps a bit, but it still can't quite get around before it gets slammed. At least this guy wasn't able to do so. It's a interesting and revealing exercise.

On the down side, the P-38 is a large, easy to hit target. Visibility is generally lousy, requiring constant rolling and skidding to check below and behind.

Anyway, I've come away from this "training", if you will, with a  new found appreciation for the P-38 as a dogfighter. I'll be flying it more in the MA as the current tour winds down. I'd also like to coax a few of the better sticks into the DA to provide a genuine challenge as one can only measure one's progress by the level of the opposition. I'd really like to play some tag with the better P-38 jocks. If nothing else, I'll learn faster.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: January 26, 2004, 06:45:52 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Wadke

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2004, 01:29:56 AM »
Welcome to the world of the P-38 Widewing :D
it really is a great plane

Offline Bodhi

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2004, 02:41:54 AM »
McGuire was killed because of a mistake in SA... pure and simple, do not blame it on his aircraft
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Offline Citabria

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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2004, 03:04:47 AM »
i find lightnings very easy to kill and kill with.

easy to hit easy to hit with


blah blah
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2004, 10:09:01 AM »
Here's another stunt the P-38 can do, that only the Zeros and N1K2 can mimic.

From a standing start (not using auto-takeoff), apply max power. Hold the P-38 on the runway until about 160 mph IAS, then pop it off, maintaining back pressure, pulling into a loop (leave the gear down if you wish). Add flaps until over the top, where you ease off power and pull out with plenty of ground clearance. If you try this with the Zeros or N1K2, work the throttle or you will impact the ground. Forget doing it with any Spitfire... They make big holes. I have film should anyone be interested.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Guppy35

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2004, 12:35:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
What killed Tommy McGuire, the #2 P38 ace of WWII? Turning in a low, slow, P-38.  The allied aircraft are somewhat over modelled in this game.  Thanks for your post.  Interesting insights.


LOL go read up again will ya storch.

McGuire was still carrying both of his drop tanks and was heavy on fuel when they encountered the e/a.  In essence his overpowering drive to pass Bong killed him, in trying to save his fuel to extend his flight, figureing the 4 38s could deal with the one e/a, leading him to order his flight not to drop tanks.

He tried to turn his 38 with those tanks on, was too low, stalled and mushed it into the trees below.

That says little about the AH 38 to me.  I don't see many 38 drivers in the game flying at full fuel and two tanks, entering a turnfight with anyone.

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Offline vorticon

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2004, 01:38:43 PM »
bah...it seems all the really good planes are being revealed for what they really are...soon enough someone will come up with some reason or another why the ki61 is a uber dweeb plane

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2004, 02:01:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
LOL go read up again will ya storch.

McGuire was still carrying both of his drop tanks and was heavy on fuel when they encountered the e/a.  In essence his overpowering drive to pass Bong killed him, in trying to save his fuel to extend his flight, figureing the 4 38s could deal with the one e/a, leading him to order his flight not to drop tanks.

He tried to turn his 38 with those tanks on, was too low, stalled and mushed it into the trees below.

That says little about the AH 38 to me.  I don't see many 38 drivers in the game flying at full fuel and two tanks, entering a turnfight with anyone.

Dan/Slack


Guppy I suggest you follow your own advice and read up yourself....  Read the below excerpt from the after action report submitted by Capt. Edwin Weaver and Lt. Douglas Thropp, the only survivors of the flight of four P-38's.  FYI, Major Jack Rittmayer was also killed in this fight.

Quote
McGuire's response was immediate as he turned sharply to the left, but something went wrong as his Lightning shuddered and threatened to stall. He sharply increased his turn in an attempt to get a shot at the enemy fighter, but his plane lost momentum and snap-rolled to the left. It was last seen in an inverted position with the nose down about 30-degrees.


That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present.  Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover.  His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.
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Offline mos

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2004, 02:02:45 PM »
Ah, posts like these give me a warm fuzzy feeling.  I love my P-38.

Offline Ecliptik

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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2004, 02:16:14 PM »
It's definitely the most enjoyable and flexible plane to fly in the game.   The fact that prudent use of flaps and trim are required to take advantage of its full potential just add to the fun.

Offline Guppy35

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2004, 11:40:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Guppy I suggest you follow your own advice and read up yourself....  Read the below excerpt from the after action report submitted by Capt. Edwin Weaver and Lt. Douglas Thropp, the only survivors of the flight of four P-38's.  FYI, Major Jack Rittmayer was also killed in this fight.

 

That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present.  Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover.  His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.


LOL hiya Bodhi!  (used to fly with ya in AW as Tiffi way back when :)

Yeah I've got Stanaway's book on the 475th with all the accounts of McGuire's last flight as well as just about every other 38 book I could find.  My mistake with the use of the term "mushing in".  My point is the same.  McGuire lost it trying to turn a fuel heavy 38 with two drop tanks, got too slow, lost it, and went into the trees.  

To use that to compare to an AH 38 is kinda silly don't ya think?

Dan/Slack
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Offline Angus

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2004, 04:23:45 AM »
I wonder how the .38 fares against the Spit V then. Anyway, Spit IX is my favourite 38 killer as well as 109F.
Oh, this:
"From a standing start (not using auto-takeoff), apply max power. Hold the P-38 on the runway until about 160 mph IAS, then pop it off, maintaining back pressure, pulling into a loop (leave the gear down if you wish). Add flaps until over the top, where you ease off power and pull out with plenty of ground clearance. If you try this with the Zeros or N1K2, work the throttle or you will impact the ground. Forget doing it with any Spitfire... They make big holes. I have film should anyone be interested"
Gonna try it. I have actually seen a real Spit IX do this, well, actually taking off straight into a loop,but rolling out at the top. Amazing sight which I have not seen any other WW2 warbird do yet.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline mos

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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2004, 02:15:49 PM »
I like dogfighting spits, both V and IX.  The IX is a little faster, but doesn't turn quite as well.  The V, on the other hand, is just the opposite.  Makes for a fun fight, it's still tough for me to identify the model until after I've engaged.

Offline Tequilla

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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2004, 03:23:04 PM »
Widewing the 38 is a nice ride however ....

Offline Sway

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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2004, 03:54:21 PM »
P38 is all about flaps... You bring them in at the right time.. You accel out of a turn like mad.  It turns just as well as any other plane.  Like Fester said... Easy to kill, easy to kill with, if you have any idea what your doing.