Exploring P-38 agility

[DYGCaps]

Great post wildwing...no matter how much I try, I suck in the 38, I pretty much only use it for attack

[OIO]

Just skimming the basics Widewing

Now go fly it in the MA exclusively for a month, then come back and tell me what you think about those goddarned flaps autoretracting on you and making you spin.

thats was #1 issue for me cancelling my subscription. every flight, every sortie, I would always end up sciscoring someone (you know, MA you have to face the B&Z and T&Z at the same time coming at you)... and in a good number of those sorties the flaps just pull themselves up the very second they hit the maxspeed, even though it was at that speed for a fraction of a second as one was pulling a high G which bled the speed down to 200mph in less than a second. Flaps retract, plane spins, you lose angles, lose the fight/the angle you had gained.

all thanks to that fairy feature that shouldnt even be in that plane.


BTW, I have my HOTAS (i have 2 hat switches) set up so one of my HAT switches trims the elevator, super easy to trim even during combat.

and the dive flaps still do not pull the nose up at around 3g's when deployed past 350mph. gah.

[mos]

Originally posted by OIO
and the dive flaps still do not pull the nose up at around 3g's when deployed past 350mph. gah.

What do you mean?  I throw out the dive flaps when the needle is pegged at 500, and there's a significan't improvement in the sky-to-ground ratio on my screen.

[TracerX]

Widewing, I like flying the 109's, and P38's.  Would love to spend some time in the DA with you.  I'll look for you online tonight.  By the way, I make a great target, and only wine a little if you HO me.

[OIO]

mos, in the real 38 the dive flaps had 2 distinct 'effects' depending on the speed at which they were deployed.

if deployed under 300mph and kept deployed under 300mph (say 300mph , deploy flaps and dive to 500mph), the dive flaps would allow the 38 to pull up the nose like we do now in the game. This effect is, id say, well modelled. It prevents the 'tuck under' compression lock.

however, if the 38 had dived and had achieved high speeds (300+) , and the dive flaps were deployed, the effect was very different. It would create a strong 3G nose pull-up effect.

P38 test pilots even commented that if they let go off the wheel the 38 would do a nice loop all by itself after deploying the flaps at high speed.

This effect is not in the game. And sadly, its effect was the best for combat situations, as a 38 could do a zero g dive (90 degree dive), have him and the guy in his tail reach compression speed (even a 190 which has its controls stiffen lots at high speeds), then pull the dive flaps and the 38 would pull out of the dive much much much faster than any plane behind him.

[Sway]

*** Always has to be beeeeachin about those flaps...  

[killnu]

bump, i just like seeing the 38 thread:}
~S~

[Widewing]

Originally posted by OIO
Just skimming the basics Widewing

Now go fly it in the MA exclusively for a month, then come back and tell me what you think about those goddarned flaps autoretracting on you and making you spin.

thats was #1 issue for me cancelling my subscription. every flight, every sortie, I would always end up sciscoring someone (you know, MA you have to face the B&Z and T&Z at the same time coming at you)... and in a good number of those sorties the flaps just pull themselves up the very second they hit the maxspeed, even though it was at that speed for a fraction of a second as one was pulling a high G which bled the speed down to 200mph in less than a second. Flaps retract, plane spins, you lose angles, lose the fight/the angle you had gained.

all thanks to that fairy feature that shouldnt even be in that plane.


BTW, I have my HOTAS (i have 2 hat switches) set up so one of my HAT switches trims the elevator, super easy to trim even during combat.

and the dive flaps still do not pull the nose up at around 3g's when deployed past 350mph. gah.

I've never lost control due to auto flap retraction. Sure, I've had them retract many times, but a touch of top rudder offsets the tendency to drop a wing. Frankly, it's no problem whatsoever. Besides, I like flying the P-38 on the ragged edge, because it is one of the very best knife fighters in the game.

The problem with the P-38 is it is the most difficult fighter to truly master in the plane set. Moreover, you will never master it by flying in the MA only. Why? Because 90% of the fights in the MA are high-speed engagements. To really explore its limits, you need to spend 50 hours or more in the TA/DA fighting against good sticks in their favorite rides.

I had several fun fights with a skilled Spitfire pilot who maintains a 6-7/1 K/D flying Spits in the MA tour after tour. He had a SpitV with 25% gas, I had the P-38 with the same 25%. We engaged pretty much Co-E and Co-alt. We flew a series of merges and reversals, with the Lightning beating the Spit on the reverse every time. Eventually, the Spit had burned off most of his E and it wasn't difficult to gain an advantage and stay glued to his six regardless of what he did. After a few minutes of this, I pulled off and reefed around into a nice lufberry to the left. I wanted to see if I could beat the SpitV at what it does best, sustained turning. I flew a wide circle allowing the Spit to get within 90 degrees of me from behind. Then, I pulled it in tight and around we went. After 1 turn, we were 180 degrees apart and he dumped his flaps in an effort to tighten his radius. Near the end of the third complete turn, I had enough lead to put a long burst into his cockpit. Since we were in the TA, no damage is sustained, so the fight goes on. The Spit reverses out of the lufberry and I kick some rudder, reverse the ailerons and stay to the inside, drilling him again. He then pulled too hard, stalled and impacted the water. Afterwards, we talked about the duel. He said he was pushing the Spit as hard as it would go, circling at 80 mph, the stall warning howling the whole time and the Spit a hair's breath from snapping into a spin. Meanwhile, the P-38 was rock steady, barely twitching and responding to rudder very well.

We had similar results a bit earlier when he took up a Niki, except the Niki was considerably easier to abuse. Another MA regular (Nun) observed the engagements and was equally surprised at the capabilities of the P-38 when in the UFO mode. I was as surprised as anyone... I only regret not filming it...

My regards,

Widewing

[mos]

Originally posted by Widewing
I only regret not filming it...

Bah!  I was a quarter of the way through the post and I thought to myself, "I wonder if he's still got the film, I'd like to see that."

[Sway]

Been flying in h2h for a month or so now, Im learning more about it then I knew when flying in MA.  Flying around low in a furball sure does teach you a lot.  I'd say Im on a 50% increase in SA/ACM since flying in the MA last.  Especially considering I fly 38 95% of the time Im online, which is quite a bit.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by mos
Bah!  I was a quarter of the way through the post and I thought to myself, "I wonder if he's still got the film, I'd like to see that."

I'll make sure to film the next one. From time to time I find I'll  disco when attempting to turn on the film during flight. So, if I forget to turn it on while in tower, I don't try to.

For me, the discovery that the P-38 can stallfight successfully with Spits, Nikis and Wildcats was a revelation. Instead of being wary of the lone Spitfire spotted Co-alt, I now relish the opportunity to draw him into a low-speed turning fight, where he figures he holds the cards. The same goes for Yaks too. Ghosth and I flew a series of duels where he flew the Yak-9U and I the P-38L. I took 50% fuel, he had 25%. At low speeds, it's no contest at all; the P-38 is much better. At high speeds it's very even until the P-38 runs out of WEP. From that point the Yak has a slight advantage until the speeds bleed down. However, that edge is enough that Ghosth got guns on me 3 times, I got mine on his Yak two times. Ghosth would then have to extend away or end up in a turning contest where the Yak is outclassed. As it was, When we agreed to try some high-speed duels, I was climbing and he had extended just beyond icon range. I leveled off and he reversed for the merge. He had a down hill run and carried at least 400 mph into the merge, I had barely 300. So, there was an energy deficit from the outset, plus my engines were already very hot and I only had about 60 seconds of WEP remaining. But, that's what you can expect in the MA anyway and you had better learn to deal with the disparity in E. Should the shoe be on the other foot, the P-38 would have the advantage and the Yak driver must work to equalize the E states. Ghosth is a very good stick and the Yak is his favorite ride. Beating him at his own game is very tough, and he will make every effort to avoid fighting against the P-38's strengths, which means being very careful in the vertical regime, and avoiding turning contests. All in all, it was great fun.

For the player who wants to become proficient with the P-38, I suggest (and Lazer surely agrees) that they spend as much time in the TA/DA (or even HTH rooms) as possible.

My regards,

Widewing

[killnu]

or, as i did, just take your beatings in MA and learn as you go.  of course, that is probably a longer more painful process.
~S~

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by storch
What killed Tommy McGuire, the #2 P38 ace of WWII? Turning in a low, slow, P-38.  The allied aircraft are somewhat over modelled in this game.  Thanks for your post.  Interesting insights.

Pilot error killed him, not the plane.



ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Bodhi


 

That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present.  Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover.  His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.

Maybe Widewing has a copy of the report or hopefully Savage is lurking about and will post a copy of the report of a recent investigation to the cause of McGuire's crash.  

The report alludes to pilot error as the cause.  In the P-38, if you throttle back on one engine and then want to advance it, you have to cut back on the other throttle and then advance both throttle together.  If you don't, the plane had a tendency to enter into a violent snap spin and at low alts like McGuire was, the result is usually fatal as there is no time to safely recover.  The reports points to this as being the most likely cause of Mcguire's crash.  Together with the facts that McGuire was flying an unfamiliar P-38 and not his usual ride and he violated one if his dictas by keeping the drop tanks and was in a race to be the #1 ace, it was almost like Destiny's recipe for disaster.


ack-ack

[Raptor]

Originally posted by OIO
P38 test pilots even commented that if they let go off the wheel the 38 would do a nice loop all by itself after deploying the flaps at high speed.

Dive flaps were not put on the p38 until late J models, because of compression problems p38 pilots had against 109's in a dive. 109 pilots figured this out and would go in a short dive and pull up to gain a little more time against the p38.