Author Topic: What is the purpose of the ball level...  (Read 1483 times)

Offline WhiteHawk

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« on: January 25, 2004, 07:48:58 AM »
In the canopy?  And how do you use it?

Offline Blooz

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2004, 10:02:00 AM »
The "stick and ball" are used to make sure you are not rolling or sliding. The "stick" shows roll and the "ball" shows yaw. Use it to manually trim your aircraft in flight and give it a glance before you release your bombs just to make sure you are flying straight.
White 9
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Offline RTR

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2004, 11:11:01 AM »
Reference the ball.
If the ball is off to the right, your nose is yawed to the left. You are in uncoordinated flight. To get back to coordinated flight and get your nose pointed in the direction your aircraft is moving,
"Step on the Ball."  (IE apply rudder).

cheers,
RTR
The Damned

Offline Hajo

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2004, 01:36:49 PM »
"Be the Ball"  (Chevy Chase, Caddyshack)
- The Flying Circus -

Offline nopoop

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2004, 01:54:28 PM »
I find it most helpful when I hang pictures about the cockpit.  I'm a stickler for everything being perpendicular..
nopoop

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Offline DipStick

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2004, 02:16:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hajo
"Be the Ball"  (Chevy Chase, Caddyshack)

LOL! Nnnnnnnnnnnnnn...  :lol

Offline beet1e

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2004, 02:43:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blooz
The "stick" shows roll and the "ball" shows yaw.  
I wouldn't take the instruments in AH too seriously. I have found several flaws. For example, the magnetic compass is calibrated backwards, and therefore has to rotate the wrong way in turns in order to give correct readings as calibrated. (WB makes the same mistake, though IL2 has it correct). The manifold pressure gauge drops to minimum when the engine is stopped. In real life, it would settle on the reading which equated to the ambient atmospheric pressure.

And I have just done a test of the turn indicator in a Spit V. I made this short film (57 secs.) in which I am able to make a 90° right turn by holding full right rudder while banking the aircraft to the left. Throughout this right hand turn, the turn indicator shows a left turn being made. (Disregard the magnetic compass entirely - it doesn't work at all in films)

I suspect the "turn" indicator has actually been set up to indicate angle of bank. However, the turn indicator does not (ie should not) indicate angle of bank. That's the job of the artificial horizon.

The ball seems to work OK.

Offline nopoop

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2004, 03:01:09 PM »
Beet your confused. The ball is not a "turn" indicator. It is reading correctly for the manuver you doing. Your skidding the airplane. Regardless of your wings banked to the left your skidding to the right. Banking it to the left makes the rudder a half assed elevator in the up position and will send you that way.

The "stick" which is missing from your example cockpit shows angle of bank. But that isn't a turn indicator either. It's just the angle of bank.  It's been a REAL long time, but if my memory serves me you used the "stick" with the ball centered to make a "standard rate turn" IFR. But many cheap beers have been done in that amount of time...

Coordinated flight, as in "stepping on the ball" in your example will bring it back to center.

In coordinated flight the ball will ALWAYS be centered regardless of atitude. Just like setting a glass of water above the instrument panel and doing an aerobatic demonstration. Bob Hoover used to do glass of water aerobatic demo in a Shrike Commander when he was still flying. Centered ball means the water stays in the glass.

It is not a turn indicator.

Cross control "slip" can be used to lose altitude quickly. In your film, if your at idle, hard right rudder and a bank to the left is a way to lose altitude quickly with a minimum of forward progress. I use it quite a bit.

In a Cessna 150 it works great, but you can't get out of hand doing it. Cross control stalls are a handful that close to the ground.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2004, 03:22:46 PM by nopoop »
nopoop

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Offline GunnerCAF

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2004, 03:11:11 PM »
I have been going through the flight instruction in FS2004.  Rod Machado, the instructor, explains the purpose of the stick and ball is to keep your passengers heads from hitting the walls of the cockpit.

In air combat, this is not a great concern.  I do notice many of the balls are positioned on or near the sight.  It can be used as an aid in shooting.  If you center the ball, your shots will not go right or left of your sight.

Gunner
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Offline beet1e

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2004, 03:15:53 PM »
Nopoop, the ball is working fine. My film is to demonstrate the TURN indicator. And by the way it IS a turn indicator, even though you said (twice) that it wasn't. You do know the difference between turn and slip, I take it? You might also want to learn the difference between yaw, your, and you're. Seems like I'm not the one who's confused. :lol


Offline nopoop

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2004, 03:36:52 PM »
Jeez Beet, I've never looked at that clock before..

It's got a L and a R on it that's for sure. That might stand for Larry and Ron or Linguisa and Ragu..

After a short flight it appears to be a mechanical stick and ball gauge. One showing angle of bank the other a slip indicator. The bank needle swaps sides in a roll when you pass through 180 degrees as the stick does in the traditional gauge. The top needle is the ball showing slip. Givin flying in 3 dimensions, just how in the world would a gauge know which way your turning ?? What if your upside down turning to the right ??

Your "turn" gauge shows exactly what the stick and ball does. A bank to the left and a slip to right. Requiring left rudder to center the ball.

Though the stick and ball has mistakenly been called a "turn" indicator. It IS under normal coordinated flight circumstances, hence the confusion.

The same explanation applies.

It was no doubt added to the Spit for no other reason than you guys over there are redundant..and the ball thing prolly confused you..

But you called me a dolt and you've hurt my feelings so your off my Christmas list.

..and if you don't appoligise and admit your wrong, you won't get a phone call on your B day either.

Then Toad will come here and whup on ya..
« Last Edit: January 25, 2004, 04:26:47 PM by nopoop »
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight.in a brew...

Offline beet1e

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2004, 05:52:25 PM »
Nopoop!
  • The slip indication is handled by the ball.
  • The angle of bank is indicated by the artificial horizon.
  • The rate of turn is shown by the turn indicator.
Quote
Givin flying in 3 dimensions, just how in the world would a gauge know which way your turning ??
It works by means of a gyroscope. You mentioned the Cessna 150 in your earlier post. In an aircraft like that, the artificial horizon and direction indicator would operate by vacuum powered gyros, whereas the turn indicator normally works off an electrically powered gyro. These instruments are sensitive to deviation in direction relative to space.  On many civil types, the turn indicator is a pair of wings very similar to an artificial horizon. This often misleads rookie pilots into believing that the turn indicator indicates the angle of bank. It does not. Put the aircraft into a 25° degree bank, and hold it out of the turn using rudder, and the turn indicator will show neutral. By the same token, if you're on the ground, taxiing from your parking spot to the runway holding point, you'll probably have to make a number of turns as you negotiate various taxiways. At each turn, the turn indicator will swing hard over - even though the aeroplane remains level. Because the instrument indicates the rate of turn, and NOT the angle of bank. But... I've just tried this in AH, and it's FUBAR. Make a 180° turn on the ground, and the instrument remains in the neutral position. Very gamey - should be right up your street. :lol
Quote
..and if you don't appoligise and admit your wrong, you won't get a phone call on your B day either.
Oh well, no phone call for me next birthday. Pity. I've got the big one coming up!
Quote
Then Toad will come here and whup on ya..
Erm... no....

... because he knows I'm right.

...And you're wrong.

And you really ought to check your facts before you say I'm confused.

Better luck next time. :aok :aok :aok

Toodle-Pip
:lol

Offline Virage

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2004, 06:12:12 PM »
cut&paste...

TURN-AND-SLIP INDICATOR

The turn-and-slip indicator (right) provides the only information of either wing's level or bank attitude if the other gyroscopic instruments should fail. This indicator is sometimes called the "needle and ball". This instrument, along with the airspeed indicator, magnetic compass and altimeter, can assist the pilot in flying through instrument weather conditions, even when it is the only gyro instrument operating.

The turn needle of the turn-and-bank indicator gives an indirect indication of the bank attitude of the aircraft. When the turn needle is exactly centered, the aircraft is in straight flight. When the needle is displaced from center, the aircraft is turning in the direction of the displacement. Thus, if the ball is centered, a left displacement of the turn needle means the left wing is low and the aircraft is in a left turn. Return to straight flight is accomplished by coordinating aileron and rudder pressures.

The ball of the turn-and-bank indicator is actually a separate instrument, conveniently located under the turn needle so the two instruments can be used together. This instrument is best used as an indication of attitude. When the ball is centered within its glass tube the maneuver is being executed in a coordinated manner. However, if the ball is out of its center location, the aircraft is either slipping or skidding . The side to which the ball has rolled indicates the direction of the slip or skid.

In a slip, the rate of turn is too slow for the angle of bank, and the lack of centrifugal force causes the ball to be displaced to the inside of the turn. (To correct, decrease the angle of bank, or use rudder to increase the rate of turn, or both). In a skid the rate of turn is too fast for the angle of bank, and excessive centrifugal force causes the ball to be displaced to the outside of the turn. (To correct, increase the bank angle, or use rudder to decrease the rate of turn, or both).

In coordinated flight, the needle may be used to measure the rate of turn; in a "standard rate turn", the needle is aligned with the left or right marker (dog-house) and the aircraft will turn at the rate of 3° per second or 180° in one minute. Hence, in these conditions, the needle indicates both direction and rate of turn.

The answer to controlling and trimming an aircraft in straight and level flight by means of the turn-and-bank indicator requires a return to basic control principles - i.e., control yaw with the rudder and keep the wings level with aileron. Therefore, when flying straight and level through the use of the turn-and-bank indicator, prevent yawing with appropriate rudder pressure, and keep the wings level with appropriate aileron pressure. The needle will not deflect while heading is constantly maintained, since no turn exists.

In other words, control the ball with rudder since the ball moves parallel to a plane passing through the rudder pedals, and control the needle with aileron since the ailerons affect bank angle, a primary requirement for a normal turn.

It is important that both the needle and ball are used together. The problem associated with using these instruments separately is that although the ball will positively indicate that the aircraft is slipping or skidding, just which one of these the aircraft is doing can only be determined by reference to the needle. Furthermore, the needle will not positively indicate a bank attitude. An aircraft could be in a bank attitude and yet the needle could remain centered or indicate a turn in the opposite direction, if controls are not coordinated.
JG11

Vater

Offline nopoop

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2004, 07:16:01 PM »
Virage explained it very well, much better than I. My memory isn't that poor after all. So I guess..

I'm correct after all, but you can still think you are if that's what you need.

Big ONE ?? Fifty ??

Your a youngster.
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight.in a brew...

Offline AcId

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What is the purpose of the ball level...
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2004, 07:18:07 PM »
You guys are confusin the buhgeezus outta me!!

What the heck do we need these guages for anyway? Just fly that way really fast, if something gets in your way, pull the trigger :D