Author Topic: Couple GV bugs..so far  (Read 2683 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« on: January 27, 2004, 09:32:37 AM »
Gvv folks are gonna love Gvs  here. Lotsa cool hiding spots.
Did spot a couple bugs though.
While I didnt fall through the ground I did come across what looked to be a seam in the terrain graphics and got stuck in it.

Also while driving around in a tank looking to see what you could and couldnt do I noticed while you can drive over small bushes which is cool if you collide with a tree you not only get stuck but suffer from bouncing tank syndrome similar to the Bouncing tiger bug in AH1

Now I can understand getting stuck.
 but might wanna think about adding Pilot/gunner wounds when colliding with immovable objects
only spent a total of about 15 minutes driving around. but thats what I found.
also Ammo type indicator is missing in the main tank gun.
Also cant get the main turret machine gun to fire.
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Offline Sabre

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2004, 12:21:44 PM »
Three M3 sorties last night in new beta.  I fell through terrain all three terrains, though it took longer than in previous versions.  Remote spawning works now; doesn't result in instant death like before.  Regarding the terrain black holes, I didn't notice any common terrain feature or conditions during each occurance.  I noticed terrain tile seam lines (very thin lines flicking in and out of view when driving right next to seam), but never got stuck in one.  I too noted the lack of a round counter in the tank main guns, as well as no indicator of the type of round selected (AP/HE/SMK).  I also noticed some flickering of tree canopy for trees up on hills (i.e., I was looking up at tree-covered hills, and the tree canopy was flickering.

AHII promises to bring some of the great ground combat action of WWIIOL to AH, if HTC can just squash a few more GV bugs.  Can't wait for the Battle of the Bulge Scenario.  Put real low cloud cover, to simulate lack of air power's impact on the battle due to weather, then go to town.:D  How about that Sherman tank now, Pyro?

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Offline acepilot2

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2004, 12:23:37 PM »
we just need a new gv damage model...

Offline emodin

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2004, 01:41:31 AM »
The GV damage model is actually alright in GV vs. GV fights.  For those who don't know, successfull penetrations on the drivers position will  kill the GV in question, while hits to the turrets in the tanks/ostwind will result in destroyed guns (btw: seeing a hit sprite on a tank does NOT mean that you got a penetration, and the damage model seems to take into account the velocity of the round AFTER it penetrates to determine the amount of damage done to the GV in question).  While I would agree that killing the driver is not necessarily the best way to determine the destruction of a GV, I think a realistic model of spalling/engine or ammo brewups would be overly complex and would open up a whole new arguement on armor hardness/brittleness, ect.

The parts of the damage model that I don't like are:

1) the ability for aircraft MGs and some cannons to kill tanks

2) the manned ack...I hate those things

3) penetration hits on the rear of tanks do not result in destruction of the tank.  The model SEEMS to decide that all hits on the rear of the vehicle will only cause damage to the engine compartment (though it has been a while since I tested this).

Offline Hap

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2004, 09:13:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
AHII promises to bring some of the great ground combat action of WWIIOL to AH


i do agree.  been rolling a few vbases uncontestedly of course.  i don't fancy gv work as much as jabo, but i think ah2 may please the gv'ers much.

Offline AKWeav

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2004, 03:34:16 PM »
Quote
The GV damage model is actually alright in GV vs. GV fights.


Guess you've never been in a Tiger and put 5 APs point blank into the side of a panzer at close range, only to have him travers and kill you with one shot.:rolleyes:

Offline DREDIOCK

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2004, 11:32:23 PM »
You got that right.
GV hit modeling is at the very LEAST inconsistant
and I keep HEARING about if you hit X tank in X spot you  can kill it. It just rarely happens with me especially against tigers. I've hit those things at practically point blank range hitting them sometimes 10 times on every conceivable position including these so called soft spots and have zero effect. plus I think a hit of AP even in an M8   in the tread would be enough to screw up the tread on even a tiger.
 Other times I've hit them at maximum range have have killed em one shot
Also Whiole being in a tiger Ive hit M16's M3's and other  GVs in the engine,drivers position, tires and have watched shells either bounce off or the GV continue without so much as a shudder.
the one thing that is consistant is taking out a turret everything else is as far as I can tell, is a roll of the dice.


Quote
Originally posted by AKWeav
Guess you've never been in a Tiger and put 5 APs point blank into the side of a panzer at close range, only to have him travers and kill you with one shot.:rolleyes:
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Offline emodin

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2004, 12:59:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWeav
Guess you've never been in a Tiger and put 5 APs point blank into the side of a panzer at close range, only to have him travers and kill you with one shot.:rolleyes:


Very simple: hit the driver's position. One penetration=one dead panzer.  You can plink the engine all day if you want...you'll never get a kill unless someone else finishes him off and you get the kill because of the number of rounds you put in him (at least that is my experience).  Key area: front, left side.  Front right will work as well, but you have to make sure it is in the front 1/4 part.  Best place, bar none, is the driver's vision slit.

I have an AH GV manual if you want me to email it to you.  It goes over this issue along with Panzer penetration ranges on the Tiger and some other stuff.

[edited for spelling]

Offline emodin

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2004, 02:13:48 AM »
As for killing soft-skin vehicles (Halftracks), you need to use HE rounds, NOT AP.  AP rounds derive their primary tank-killing power by creating what is called "spalling": the AP round litterally rips part of the tank's armor (along with parts of the shell itself) and throws it around in the crew compartment.  This is how 45mm Anti-tank guns (and smaller) could kill tanks.

The problem with using AP on soft-skin vehicles is primarily due to the fact that the AP round should pass right through the Halftrack where you hit it.  Therefore, unless you hit the driver's postion spot on, the round will just pass throught he Halftrack, damaging only those parts it impacts upon.  

HE rounds, on the other hand, are great for killing Halftracks since they have a blast damage that will pass through the light armor to do damage to the whole vehicle.  A couple of near misses on a Halftrack with your 88mm HE, and that Halftrack will be no more (I'd say you can get kills when hitting the ground ~10-20 yards away from the HT).

Offline hitech

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2004, 08:40:45 AM »
emodin, can you email me your manual?

dalea@hitechcreations.com

HiTEch

Offline AKWeav

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2004, 07:03:09 PM »
Quote
Very simple: hit the driver's position


Very similar to killing any thing. One round in the pilot, and the whole machine blows up.

I'm just saying that after putting all that ordinance into the side of a panzer, he should not be able to wipe my tiger with one shot. Other people have also expressed frustration on the difficulty of killing panzers with a tiger, and how easily their tigers are killed by panzers.

Course I just naturally have problems with gvs. I can straff ostwinds all day with a typoon, and get their engine smoking. But have my ostwind get plinked a couple of times by a F6F and right away the main gun is out. The angle of attack doesn't seem to matter much either.

I am the undisputed king of rubber bullets. ;)

Offline emodin

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2004, 08:50:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
emodin, can you email me your manual?

dalea@hitechcreations.com

HiTEch



I'm thinking I accidentally misrepresented what I was trying to say. I don't have TECHNICAL documents relating to WW2 tank penetration or tank manuals.  Instead, two of my squadies and I wrote up a AH GV guide.

Sorry for any confusion.

Offline Flit

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2004, 09:01:29 PM »
send it anyway, maybe He'll post it

Offline DREDIOCK

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2004, 12:11:39 AM »
Ditto.

Had a good example tonight lost 2 tigers both to side shots while I pinged a panzer in this so called killspot drivers position 3 times and didnt even get him to smoke
yet twice a panzer firing at quite a distance I might add managed to kill my tiger from hits in the side. the first time in one shot the second time in 3.
 Fast forward later in the night Im in a panzer and shooting at a tiger. Landed 3 solid hits 2 in the so called killzone drivers slit  and all I managed to do was get him to change the direction he was driving. hit him 3 more times only to have shells fly off.

Now I can understand the tigers being tough. In Bill Maudins book "Up Front" he talks about a situation where 3 self propeled anti tank guns were firing numerous rounds at point blank range at a tiger and couldnt knock it out while all the tiger had to do was wheel his turret around and with 3 shots kill all three.
now if 3 ATGs can fire several rounds at a tigerat point blank range and not kill it how can a panzer firing at distance consistantly kill a tiger in 1 or 2 shots hitting it in the side?
thats why I stopped wasting perks on tigers for the most part and only use them for feild defence and rarely in an attack.
I've  even had my turret taken out by a blasted M3 once
Dont get me wrong. I can be pretty decent in a GV and get more then my fair share of kills in them But there are times when I get kills in GVs where I sctatch my head and wonder howthe hell I did it. and there are other times where I've scored no less then 20 hits on every conceivable position of the dern thing and never so much as managed to knock a tread out let alone kill it. And THAT was in another tiger.. Now one would think a single round of AP should be able to at least damage the tread on even a tiger


Quote
Originally posted by AKWeav
Very similar to killing any thing. One round in the pilot, and the whole machine blows up.

I'm just saying that after putting all that ordinance into the side of a panzer, he should not be able to wipe my tiger with one shot. Other people have also expressed frustration on the difficulty of killing panzers with a tiger, and how easily their tigers are killed by panzers.

Course I just naturally have problems with gvs. I can straff ostwinds all day with a typoon, and get their engine smoking. But have my ostwind get plinked a couple of times by a F6F and right away the main gun is out. The angle of attack doesn't seem to matter much either.

I am the undisputed king of rubber bullets. ;)
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Offline emodin

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Couple GV bugs..so far
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2004, 01:06:43 AM »
I can understand the frustration with killing tanks in the game.  I am not sure (I am definitely NOT a programer), but GV damage SEEMS to be mostly location specific.  I say mostly because sometimes there are those unaccounted for instances when I think I shot the driver's postion and he doesn't die, or I don't hit it and they do the Pop-Tart manuever (you know, where the tank pops up off the ground, hovers, rotates 90 degrees, and then explodes).  Most of my experience has been that if you get a penetration hit on the driver's position, the GV is toast on the first shot.  Likewise, a penetrating, damaging shot (you can get penetration hit sprites without doing damage) to the turret will render the main gun inoperable, with the same being true for hitting the engine area.

Now I would agree that you should be able to get one-shot kills on tanks without having to shoot the driver specifically, but I assume that this is something that they could not easily or fairly model in the original AH (I can't imagine what it would be like to model spalling without someone claiming foul).  Since I cannot speak for AH2, I will say that from my experience in the MA and some of the testing I did for my GV manual, there does seem to be some kind of threshold that, once reached, causes damage and/or destruction to the subsystem or vehicle.  In other words, I think that if you do a greater amount of damage to a tank or vehicle, that vehicle will be destroyed, even if you do not get a critical hit on the driver's position.  Once again, this is simply conjecture on my part, and not based on any concrete evidence that I can point to.

As for those instances where people have problems killing enemy GVs even when they are shooting the sweet spot:  I honestly don't know what to say.  I can say that whenever I got shots on the driver's slit or the front part of the tank, near the side (so the shot would penetrate on a line with the driver's position), I would get one-shot kills almost every time.  I'm not saying you are mistaken, only that I cannot explain what is happening if you are hitting the driver's position.  I will say that it does not surprise me that Panzers are killing Tigers on side shots.  In fact, you can get side shot penetrations of Tigers at ~2.2K distance, but it will take you about 5 hits (by parking shots in the same location: turret or driver's position) to get a driver or turret kill, whereas it only takes one well aimed shot at ranges below 1.9K to kill or damage the Tiger.

A final note on damaging ground vehicles: try to keep from hitting the engine unless you absolutely need to.  Killing the engine results in smoke that is indistinguishible form the smoke related to destroyed main guns.  Go for the turret instead and try to get it to smoke first so you know he's not going to shoot back.

The GV aspect can be frustrating sometimes, but it's also nice to drive around being sneaky. :)

[I keep forgetting original has only one "r"]