Author Topic: Europe wants to move out of the house... (Read 4378 times)

Nilsen · « **Reply #45 on:** February 01, 2004, 07:30:12 AM »

where in the US do you live GRUN?

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #46 on:** February 01, 2004, 07:34:01 AM »

You have to forgive Grunherz for being bitter for this old continent. You have to understand the circumstances that forced him to escape to the US. He grew up and lived in a communist yugoslavia - which puts his ideas and the newly nationalistic blubber in a context. He's like the happy little puppy after you throw him a bone.

Grunherz is now blind to the fact that the US hasn't been any more peaceful than any other country in the history. It all started with the massive slaughter of the indigineous population of America (yes he forgets modern americans are actually european immigrants that fled the depression or the offspring of the african slaves), then followed massive slavery, racism and civil war. Then when the escalation of war forced the U.S. to take part during WWi and II Grun mistakes it for being simply a friendly gesture on behalf of the U.S. While it in reality was a cold strategic move. It was absolutely necessary for the U.S. to stop hitler before he could gain domination of 90% of the worlds natural resources. In G's mind its bent to 'we bailed out your asses.' Buddy, THEY bailed out their own tulips after they realised the rest of the europe wasn't equipped to stop hitler after years of fighting. You weren't even born at that time AFAIK. The final wakeup was Pearl Harbour as they understood U.S. soil wasn't safe from the growing military power and its allies.

Then the Korean and Vietnam wars, conspiracy which lead to the assassination of JFK as he wanted to pull the plug on military expense.. And the list goes on and on. Modern history shows that the U.S. is on the top of the list of hostile activities against other nations. You as an american have really nothing to say to the europeans or anyone else for that matter.

Get off your high horse and smell the coffee.

straffo · « **Reply #47 on:** February 01, 2004, 07:53:58 AM »

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Poland and england are in europe, so what? What on earth does that have to do with my argument?

Whoops i see what you mean: I was being sarcastic in response to thrawns post.

And why so testy straffo, ur usually ok guy? But now you call me ignorant and suggest I know nothing about history? Are you drunk or otherwise upset/unstable at this time?

Sorry didn't noticed the sarcasm.
I was neither drunk nor upset, I was in hurry because I was cooking (and dinking wine but just for tasting I swear

)

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Do you disagree that france after ww2 did WILLINGLY to enforce AGAIN its pre ww2 vietnam colonial rule with an agressive military presence? They invaded vietnam and even used the POW japanese troops against the vietnamese people at start?

To bad ,I thought we killed all those japaneses.
We should have any way at least murdered some as it's how their "honnor" system work.

But I'm pissed as we were finaly able to bury decently my great uncle honorably killed by a saber and some bayonnettes when he was bleeding having his legs teared by a grenade.

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Did not france attack egypt in 1956 along with england and israel?

They didn't attack they defended.

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Did france not wage a brutal opressive war in algeria?

Yep and the Algerian were not boyscout either.
Where is your point here ? (honestly)

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Did france not sink the greenpeace ship and kill a crewmember?

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Did france not test nukes as late as 1996?

yes and so ?

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As for versailles please show me an account where france was offering the terms of reconcilation and the usa demanding outrageus conditions which lead to ww2...

How many time should I say that you can be generous when you enter a war 3 year after the other , after sucking their gold and not having about 1/3 of the richest part your territory devasted.

It's pure propaganda ... exactly like when some idiot say : The USA won WWII.
Without taking into account that the Atlantic was a better protection than any fortification.

If you want to play a whatif kreigspiel using the US force instead of the French troop ... you will notice the Fall of France campaign duration would have been some day instead of some weeks ...

There is no point in arguing with propaganda.

Ripper29 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 01, 2004, 07:59:16 AM »

[When were you there, and where? I was in Tuzla. [/B][/QUOTE]

In 2002 (March-December). I worked in Sarajevo but traveled around the country a bit. Was in Tuzla a couple times.

lazs2 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 01, 2004, 09:15:21 AM »

euros crave to have a moomy run their lives... if not us then they will elect socialists to nanny them.

lazs

Lance · « **Reply #50 on:** February 01, 2004, 09:20:13 AM »

Heh, this thread makes you all look like fat, bratty teenagers.

Pongo · « **Reply #51 on:** February 01, 2004, 11:05:28 AM »

"Europe is just a bratty teenager and this frenchy guy said it just right. Modern europe, far from being old and wise, is merely a postwar child of America, now they are teenagers and feel they want to move on on their own in some limited way. I think this best explains the conflict we had over iraq."

Ya you must have it right. Everyone that thought it wrong to invade Iraq is just crazy or jeolous. Its just crazy talk really...

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #52 on:** February 01, 2004, 12:44:46 PM »

Siaf unlike you I did not grow up the rich son of a banker in switzerland on a fortune built of stolen jewish blood money from the holocaust, so when I see the wealth and more importantly opprtunity that America provides me I dont take that wealth and opportunity for granted.

I hope you can understand that.

cpxxx · « **Reply #53 on:** February 01, 2004, 03:08:22 PM »

Well Grun,
I had to re-read my post to see how you could have misunderstood it so completely. You are so wrong sometimes I wonder if you are trolling. But then I read yours again and saw this.

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When the USA got involved in the yugo civil war there was no trouble finding the bad guys. An army encamped around a major city and bombing it indesciminaty for years on end is pretty easy to see.. An army which had stolen 1/3 of another nation for years on end is pretty easy to identify... An army that slaughters 10,000 + innocent civilians is easy to identify. An army which flattens hitoric cities and murders all hospital patients and pows they catch is easy to identify and that army was identified very quickly when the war started....

Apart from wrongly giving the US full credit again, the rest is quite revealing about you and places you firmly in one ethnic camp. This of course has coloured your view of the whole situation. I fear that your perception of Europe is quite different to that of most Europeans and I think Americans. The degree of bitterness you feel has been caused by what happened in your homeland. That explains a lot. Your devotion to America begins to make sense now. That's fine America is a great place to be. But the rest of the world is not so bad either sometimes.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #54 on:** February 01, 2004, 04:17:08 PM »

Tell me do you really think that the war over there was not the
main guilt of Miloshevic? He was the one who sent in tanks to attack slovenia, then turned his federal army on croatia and then bosnia. Ethnic or no ethnic differences only a deluded mind would not recognize the primacy of his guilt.

You are so funny, whats next that Hitler and the Nazis were not the main ones at fault for actually starting the fighting of ww2?

I'm not saying the rest of the world is any more "bad" that the USA. I'm just reacting to the ridiculus notion that somehow europe is pure as the driven snow and has recognized the folly of war unlike the barbaric USA as you state...

USA gets full credit because it did most of the work and was certainly the one that instigated the 1995 bombing of serb positions and USA helped plan the joint 1995 croatian/bosnian allies ground offensive that liberated 1/3 of croatia and much of bosnia... The USA had no trouble making the EASY moral decision on who the bad guys were and whom they needed to help win the war....

cpxxx · « **Reply #55 on:** February 01, 2004, 04:53:58 PM »

Yes it was Miloshevic. We all know that. He attempted to use Serb paranoia to bolster his position. It was a naked grab for power on his part. So obviously everyone should have jumped in on and attacked Serbia? It was a move like that which brought down the Hapsburg empire. A lesson learned. On the other hand you could argue that he was attempting to preserve Yugoslavia. so everyone should have joined in on Serbia's side? You decide.

Hitler started WW2, true. But you could argue that the French and British caused it with the Versailles treaty. Or it was because of the general feeling in the German army that WW1 was lost because of Communists and Jews and the in fact the army was not militarily defeated. Or maybe you could blame Gavrilo Princip in Sarajevo 1914 or the Serb government who funded them. Back to those Serbs again. Or it could be the Austrians who attacked Serbia or the Russians who threatened Austria because they attacked Serbia thus provoking the Germans who attacked Russia which brought in the French and the British.

The blame game is fun.

I didn't say Europe is as pure as driven snow or that America is barbaric. Neither is true.

As for easy moral decisions, well Croatians perpetrated war crimes too. Not so easy and not so moral then?

The point is that nothing is so black and white as you seem to think.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #56 on:** February 01, 2004, 05:04:14 PM »

All sides commied attrocities in the civil war, as did all sides in WW2 - neither takes away from the fact that the worst atrocities and most outrageus behavior were undoubtyably commited by the serbs and the nazis.

Eisenhowerr to the Hague!!!! Roosevelt to Nurnberg!!!! Churchil to the gallows.. Hardly....

But its cool man, the USA came in eventually with a real political will to kill the bad guys and it turned out ok, sort of.

Nilsen · « **Reply #57 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:10:17 AM »

where in the US do you live GRUN?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #58 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:30:38 AM »

California.

GS its not really "hate." My actual thoughts and emotions on the subject are beyond the scope of BBS discussion and my slow typing. Perhaps we can one day discuss in real life...

As for being biased, tell me factually where the stuff I said is seriously biased?

I admit all sides commited atrocities in the war. All including my side.

But.

It is obvious that one side commited the worst one and the mst and in the most agregious ways. The serbs...

Thats factually true, is it not?

Hortlund · « **Reply #59 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:32:03 AM »

"Our crimes does not count, because what they did was much worse."

It doesnt really work that way.