Author Topic: Europe wants to move out of the house...  (Read 4005 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Europe wants to move out of the house...
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2004, 05:55:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Easy. The side that wasn't fighting for a genocidal maniac, who after victory planned to exterminate an entire race from the planet and murder anyone who stood in his way; the US/UK everytime. They were also racing to save as much territory from Stalin's hands in addition to knocking out Hitler.


Much to my amusement, I notice that you for some reason seem reluctant to include Stalin among the allies. Maybe because he also was a genocidal maniac?

And if the US/UK were racing to save as much territory as possible from Stalin, then why on earth did they split up Europe between them at Yalta?

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2004, 05:59:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its amazing how hortlund is making excuses for and otherwise marginalizing nazi atrocites only moments after saying this:

"Our crimes does not count, because what they did was much worse."

It doesnt really work that way.



Wow....


So, where am I making excuses for the nazi atrocities?

Also note that I, again, tried to save you from looking like a tard by removing the emoticon from your post.

I know that the written language can sometimes be hard to master, but dont give up grun...Im sure you can make yourself understood without drawing little cartoons.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2004, 06:07:08 AM »
The USSR was going to fight Germany anyway, the defeat of whom was the No.1 priority. It was an alliance of convenience rather than melding of nations with similar ideological and political motivations, which is what you're trying to argue. You seem to be making the point that the US/UK was tarred with the same genocidal brush as the USSR. That's bollocks.

What was the alternative to Yalta? A conflict between the USSR and the US/UK in 1945? You're nuts.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2004, 06:26:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
It was an alliance of convenience rather than melding of nations with similar ideological and political motivations, which is what you're trying to argue.
[/b]
No I'm not.
Quote

You seem to be making the point that the US/UK was tarred with the same genocidal brush as the USSR. That's bollocks.
[/b]Not only is it bollocks, it is also your own, flawed, interpretation of what I am saying.  
Quote

What was the alternative to Yalta? A conflict between the USSR and the US/UK in 1945? You're nuts.

Its rather intriguing to see you, Dowding, defend an alliance with a genocidal, butchering maniac. Especially after reading oh-so-many posts by you where you point out how bad the US has been in the past for supporting various dictators.

Anyway,
If the alternatives are
a) enslavement of eastern europe, or
b) a US/UK - USSR conflict in 1945
Even if we limit the options to these two, then I'm pretty sure that most people would agree that it would be better to check the Soviet power grab already in 1945, save the world from a 40 yr old cold war, save hundreds of million lives, and save hundreds of millions of people from a life in slavery...apparently you find the idea idiotic...
 
but there is also another option,
c) Tell Stalin to back off or face the pointed end of the nuclear arsenal of the USA.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2004, 06:45:41 AM »
It's so easy for you to say 'continue the fight', 70 years after the fact. The last thing the Western powers wanted was to continue the conflict past the point of defeating Hitler. They also knew that the Soviets had an atomic program, but not what stage it was at. Consequently, even though Truman discussed using nuclear weapons against the Russians in '45, it was discarded because of the chance of atomic retaliation.

As for US (and UK) support for dictatorships - these are dictatorships in crappy tin-pot countries in side-show wars, not a do-or-die total war involving the fate of Western civilisation. I think there is an order of magnitude difference in scale. Also, at least quote me in context. I was responding to the POV that Saddam was evil and should be deposed - I think it was worth pointing out the U-turn in Western policy towards him.

So Hortlund, who would you support in WW2? Or would you do as your country did and make a reach for the soap?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2004, 06:49:58 AM »
Bollocks, GScholz. Bomber Harris was equivalent to Stalin? A head of state responsible for killing 12 million people, in peace-time?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2004, 06:52:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
So Hortlund, who would you support in WW2?


Finland.

Edit - And...incidentally...that is exactly what we did in ww2 too.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2004, 07:01:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Bollocks, GScholz. Bomber Harris was equivalent to Stalin? A head of state responsible for killing 12 million people, in peace-time?


Both Harris and LeMay deserves the "guilty of crimes against humanity"-verdict.

The fact that Stalin was more ruthless is hardly relevant.

If LeMay is responsible for 500 000 civilian deaths, and Harris 250 000 (numbers just taken out of thin air by me to make a point) they can hardly say "yeah, but Stalin killed 12 000 000 so we are no where near his particular level of atrocities" as an excuse.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2004, 07:06:35 AM »
Grünherz, if your intent was to discuss whether Europe should be seen as a "teenager" trying to move out of the house, you could have written it just like that and supported it with the quotes you had.

Instead you chose a confrontational and insulting tone in your post. You have some animosity towards Europe and you channel it - and this time by using a "proper" argument as an excuse to "let the Euros have it".

Dude, I like you, but you are starting to disappoint me. You're an intelligent guy with good debating skills, and I enjoy your posts when you use your mind and remain objective and open minded - you dfo have lotsa good things to say. Your delivery as of recent has been somewhat poor and the reception suffers from it. We've talked about this in other threads.

I absolutely know that when I meet you, we'll get along fine and you're likely to be more receptive for others (mine) perception of things - it is as if the BBS sorta exaggerates certain aspects of behaviour. I'm not immune to it either, but I try to remain objective.

I'm a Euro, you're a naturalized American. It doesn't really mean anything.

I'm looking forward to posts from you where there is an objective, non insulting open minded subject. I've seen your early posts and I know you're capable of these.  It's not as if I want to or can dismiss the points you raise in more recent posts - it's just I cannot be bothered when I'm first insulted and then realize that whatever I say, it'll be for naught, since I'll first of all be driven on the defensive and thus retaliate in kind, or be percieved as doing so and secondly because I know by then we'll both have national or personal pride involved and will be very unwilling to concede any points.

Anyway, I hope you go back to the Old Grünherz, who was perceptive and curious, rather than the new one, who is more full of anger and has all the definitive answers.

I want the Old Grünherz back dammit! :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2004, 07:09:58 AM by StSanta »

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2004, 08:52:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
 
but there is also another option,
c) Tell Stalin to back off or face the pointed end of the nuclear arsenal of the USA.



In early Feb 1945 there was no such option...........

The western Allies were just breaking into Germany and still stuck in Italy whilst the Russian had swept across most of Europe with an army the size of which the world had/has never seen mobilised.

In 45 Russian logistics no longer depended upon Lend
Lease and Stalin had shown that he would kill millions of his own countrymen to achieve his ends.

Russia was still officially an Ally of Japan (Non Aggression Pact)

Poland the very Ally for whom Great Britain declared war on Germany for had already been abandoned to Russia whilst the Western Allies looked on as Stalin ordered his armies to hold at the Vistula until the Nazi's had completed the anialation of the Warsaw rising.

Polands "government in exile" was already an "embarrassment" to the West in October 44. Not a single Pole took part in the London VE day celebration parade in 45 despite the sacrifices made during the BoB.


Roosevelt and Churchill knew the out come of a war with Russia in 45............the West would have lost it and another 20 million would have died, Germany at least would have been totally annexed and the Red army would control the Eastern Mediteranean .

One horror replaced with another. After 5 years of war it could not be contemplated.
Ludere Vincere

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2004, 11:23:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
Grünherz, if your intent was to discuss whether Europe should be seen as a "teenager" trying to move out of the house, you could have written it just like that and supported it with the quotes you had.

Instead you chose a confrontational and insulting tone in your post. You have some animosity towards Europe and you channel it - and this time by using a "proper" argument as an excuse to "let the Euros have it".

Dude, I like you, but you are starting to disappoint me. You're an intelligent guy with good debating skills, and I enjoy your posts when you use your mind and remain objective and open minded - you dfo have lotsa good things to say. Your delivery as of recent has been somewhat poor and the reception suffers from it. We've talked about this in other threads.

I absolutely know that when I meet you, we'll get along fine and you're likely to be more receptive for others (mine) perception of things - it is as if the BBS sorta exaggerates certain aspects of behaviour. I'm not immune to it either, but I try to remain objective.

I'm a Euro, you're a naturalized American. It doesn't really mean anything.

I'm looking forward to posts from you where there is an objective, non insulting open minded subject. I've seen your early posts and I know you're capable of these.  It's not as if I want to or can dismiss the points you raise in more recent posts - it's just I cannot be bothered when I'm first insulted and then realize that whatever I say, it'll be for naught, since I'll first of all be driven on the defensive and thus retaliate in kind, or be percieved as doing so and secondly because I know by then we'll both have national or personal pride involved and will be very unwilling to concede any points.

Anyway, I hope you go back to the Old Grünherz, who was perceptive and curious, rather than the new one, who is more full of anger and has all the definitive answers.

I want the Old Grünherz back dammit! :)


Thanks santa, I cannot disagree with anything you said. I appreciate your honesty and good will. You are right, and I have also become aware of it that for some reson - perhpas the iraq disagreement or some strange thoughts some have about 911 - I have become somewhat sensitive and reactinary and in turn provocative. Whatever the circumstances are though, I cant make exciuse for it, it is my choice to post in a such a way and I will have to accept responsibilty and decide to be more careful about it. Thanks man.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2004, 11:53:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
They intervened to spare Sweden from being Nazi Germany's willing rent boy. It was getting embarassing. Your country should have grown a pair and been overun like France. At least they put up a fight instead of being submissi... sorry... 'neutral'.

Ciao.


Wow....you sound like me....you feeling ok?