Year-End MA After Action Report (2003)

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I wrote a long essay giving very typical examples of the two styles and how it relates to gunnery. I see no need to re-iterate it simply because you have your panties in a bunch and choose to disagree.

[/B]

I see no need to reiterate it either because, for the most part, your long-winded essay incorrectly asserts that gunnery is "exponentially" more difficult for BnZ than for furballing.  No need to tread over that ground again since you can't prove it beyond anecdotally pointing to your (massively improved!!!!) gunnery score when flying turn and burn rather than boom and zoom.  Incidentally, an improvement of about 12% hardly represents an exponential difference.

You have every right to your own opinions, just as I do but, your knee-jerk responses to my well thought out posts are growing quite tiresome. Frankly, a more comprehensive response on my part is a waste of my valuable time, and would detract from the otherwise constructive debate the rest of us are enjoying.

[/B]

I don't expect a more comprehensive response from you because you have nothing more to contribute.  You cannot prove what you argued as fact, and you never argued that for you BnZ gunnery was more difficult.  You indeed made an indefensible general statement with which just about everyone here is going to disagree.  But we wouldn't want for you to waste valuable "practice" time in one of your shades accounts, so by all means ignore me.

I hardly consider poo-pooing responses from you to be "constructive," but then again I expect as little from you.

Have a nice day.

Always.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[B17Skull12]

Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
lololol too funny this is going to break the 500 thread ceiling!!

almost half way there!

[thrila]

I find aiming when bnz much easier than when TnB.  For me it's because you have so much more time to prepare for the shot.  When i dive someone and they make a break turn or some other manouver, i fly into a postion where they'll pass through my crosshair between 200-300m.  As they fly through it i open fire and they die (well often enough;) ).

If i am TnB, as levi said most opportunities are brief snapshots, with little time to prepare and to get into position.  You have at most a few secs to get it right and pull the trigger.

I wouldn't call myself a great shot, tho i find defelection shooting easy.  Little over 300m and i can't hit much at all.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Steve
I'm salivating. lol how Pavlovian.  This shot is bad news for the victim.  Sure you have to lead a bit more because fo the closure/angle,  but it almost always means the bad guy will fly his entire plane, including canopy through the bullet stream.  Kill!

And then the other guys whines about being HO'ed.




ack-ack

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


I see no need to reiterate it either because, for the most part, your long-winded essay incorrectly asserts that gunnery is "exponentially" more difficult for BnZ than for furballing.  No need to tread over that ground again since you can't prove it beyond anecdotally pointing to your (massively improved!!!!) gunnery score when flying turn and burn rather than boom and zoom.  Incidentally, an improvement of about 12% hardly represents an exponential difference.

[/B]

I don't expect a more comprehensive response from you because you have nothing more to contribute.  You cannot prove what you argued as fact, and you never argued that for you BnZ gunnery was more difficult.  You indeed made an indefensible general statement with which just about everyone here is going to disagree.  But we wouldn't want for you to waste valuable "practice" time in one of your shades accounts, so by all means ignore me.

I hardly consider poo-pooing responses from you to be "constructive," but then again I expect as little from you.

 

Always.  

-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]

I disagree with you. I for one find TnB gunnery much easier, far less data to compute, less variables and the target is much slower and closer. Again, as I stated earlier, not once did I mention furball, where you might be switching targets, both are examples of 1 vs. 1.  

Btw, didn't you quit AW because of the prevalence of "Alt-Monkeys" and "BnZers"? I seem to recall that, and alot of whining about them on your part, although it was years ago...Just wondering since you seem to have some personal vendetta against that style and those that represent it that is going far beyond peacable and friendly debate. Anyways, your responses are teetering on the edge of flaming, which I do not want this thread to devolve into as I told Lazs. Your co-operation is appreciated.

Zazen

[TweetyBird]

>>Getting a high hit % in the stats can be as simple as just waiting until your target is so close it looks like a barn. <<

Shooting bombers helps it enormously, and never strafing gv's helps as well.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by B17Skull12
almost half way there!

My goal was to keep this thread alive until AH2 is released. I think I can do it with your guys help, I promise to keep it interesting I don't want the longest thread on this board to be the "Lowest Form of the Game" thread . I want to exemplify the "Highest Form of the Game", thus the prohibition on wreckless flaming and such.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Getting a high hit % in the stats can be as simple as just waiting until your target is so close it looks like a barn. <<

Shooting bombers helps it enormously, and never strafing gv's helps as well.

Yea, shooting bombers helps hit %. But, be wary of getting super-close to targets, after reading historical commentary I endeavored to work on that. Typical WW2 pilots didn't fire until the enemy was at least 200 yards, some waited until the enemy was less than 100 yards!!. I found I died from plane part collisions so much as to make getting any closer than 250 yards with any closure just not worth the risk.

Actually, it was this experiement that caused me to change my convergences to the "Cone of Fire" pattern. For example in the typical 6 X 50cal US planes my guns from outer to inner are 475/450/425. My thinking here was, as the target got closer I would have additional firepower concentrating on a smaller area increasing the likelihood of totally destroying the enemy aircraft rather than just knocking a piece off. Also, as we are dealing with objects in motion, it seemed to make sense to have a range of maximal convergence rather than a specific point of maximal convergence.

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I disagree with you. I for one find TnB gunnery much easier, far less data to compute, less variables and the target is much slower and closer. Again, as I stated earlier, not once did I mention furball, where you might be switching targets, both are examples of 1 vs. 1.

[/B]

Fair enough, but keep in mind that for each of us this sort of experience varies.  Hence a universal statement that one form of flying engenders "exponentially" easier gunnery just won't fly with many others here.  I think you'll find that most here would disagree with you, myself included.  I personally don't find either style more difficult than any other; both have easy and difficult shots.

Btw, didn't you quit AW because of the prevalence of "Alt-Monkeys" and "BnZers"? I seem to recall that, and alot of whining about them on your part, although it was years ago...

[/b]

LOL You might want to check your memory there.  I quit Air Warrior because Aces High came along and, after some starts and stops, struck my fancy more.  I left without any wringing of hands or gnashing of teeth.  I'm not sure where you came up with this one.

Just wondering since you seem to have some personal vendetta against that style and those that represent it that is going far beyond peacable and friendly debate.

[/B]

I don't see how you could possibly interpret anything I've said on these forums as an attack on the way you fly.  In fact, if you read through the bulletin board you'll find that I encourage players to fly in any way they desire.  I might not find certain flying styles personally interesting, but it's their money.  The most important factor is having fun.

What I have problems with is a holier-than-thou attitude espoused by proponents of any style.  When you insist that people who fly differently than you are somehow intellectually or otherwise inferior, I'm going to call you on it.  Only one person between the two of us has problems with the way others fly.  Here's a hint... it's not me.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Zazen13]

[/B]

I don't see how you could possibly interpret anything I've said on these forums as an attack on the way you fly.  In fact, if you read through the bulletin board you'll find that I encourage players to fly in any way they desire.  I might not find certain flying styles personally interesting, but it's their money.  The most important factor is having fun.

What I have problems with is a holier-than-thou attitude espoused by proponents of any style.  When you insist that people who fly differently than you are somehow intellectually or otherwise inferior, I'm going to call you on it.  Only one person between the two of us has problems with the way others fly.  Here's a hint... it's not me.

-- Todd/Leviathn [/B][/QUOTE]

I could care less how people choose to fly. All I ever said was it was unrealistic to "Fly Until You Die", but not all TnBers "Fly Until They Die". I am just a realism junkie. Energy Fighting was pretty much the only "deliberate" fighting that took place, largely due to differences in aircraft performance (ie: one side had a clear advantage in certain areas of performance ie: speed, turn-rate,climb-rate and roll-rate). Any TnB style fighting was either by accident (isolated engagements) or because one plane had a superiority in turn-rate and the E to force the situation. Getting involved in a prolonged TnB fight with more than one enemy around was just considered wreckless and simply too dangerous. Zero's in the Pacific theatre are a good example. What did the Americans do to counter that? Energy-Fighting, BnZ and ripped them to shreds. But, as far as people's choice goes, I am not prepared to pay their 15 bucks a month so they can do whatever they please. My posts are my opinion backed up by whatever statistical evidence I think is applicable or usefull.

The primary purpose of all of this is to inform, debate, and provide some insights for newer players from some old veterans. There's far too little of that sort of thing on this forum. It is this sort of thread that gives that 'community' feel. After reading through that, "Lowest Form of the Game" thread we could use it.

Zazen

[B17Skull12]

Originally posted by Zazen13
My goal was to keep this thread alive until AH2 is released. I think I can do it with your guys help, I promise to keep it interesting I don't want the longest thread on this board to be the "Lowest Form of the Game" thread . I want to exemplify the "Highest Form of the Game", thus the prohibition on wreckless flaming and such.

Zazen

http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55540 is the longest thread ever i think

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by B17Skull12
http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55540 is the longest thread ever i think

I think this is the longest thread... Who are you? (pics)  694 replies!

well, this is just looking at the O'club and the General Discussion Forums where I think there were the longest threads...

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by FDutchmn
I think this is the longest thread... Who are you? (pics)  694 replies!

well, this is just looking at the O'club and the General Discussion Forums where I think there were the longest threads...

Wow, that's alot of Pics! Ok, maybe not the longest then, just more than that hideous monster of a thread, "Lowest Form of the Game" lol

Zazen

[Urchin]

I wouldn't consider myself to be an exceptional shot.  Rather, as many people have said, I just wait until I am very close to shoot.

Typically the guy I kill is closer than 150 yards.  At that range, it doesnt matter if it is a deflection/snap shot or a tracking shot, it is hard to miss.  In some cases I find "bnz" shooting to be easier, because you can get the guy to bleed off his speed dodging you, so even if his aspect is changing rapidly (like a zero or spitfire) at slow speed, he really isn't moving anywhere.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Urchin
I wouldn't consider myself to be an exceptional shot.  Rather, as many people have said, I just wait until I am very close to shoot.

Typically the guy I kill is closer than 150 yards.  At that range, it doesnt matter if it is a deflection/snap shot or a tracking shot, it is hard to miss.  In some cases I find "bnz" shooting to be easier, because you can get the guy to bleed off his speed dodging you, so even if his aspect is changing rapidly (like a zero or spitfire) at slow speed, he really isn't moving anywhere.

You don't get smacked by pieces getting that close? I sure as heck do...What's the secret?

Zazen