Author Topic: Europe is weak (Read 1651 times)

Nakhui · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2004, 12:10:36 PM »

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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Most europeons dont care about the US unless our policys affect them.

Most American's don't care about European policy unless it affects them.

Think they care if Janet Jackson shows her boob during SuperBowl Half time...

Thilly American's puritans and their moronic mores.... shocked when they see a beautiful woman's breast, but disappointed when the gore and violence in Friday the 13th isn't "real" enough.

You're point?

Rude · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2004, 12:29:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
Since we are continuing in the uncorroborated judgements...

Seems to me most Americans have a complex regarding Europe... if you decide to exercise your sovereignty by following the will of your people, you are deemed to have no balls... if you go the way of the poodle and leave the decision making up to Washington you're deemed to be loyal. How very gracious!

Stop it will ya.

Here's the skinny from Rude's perspective....the common folks of this big world of ours have and will continue to get pinched by the powerful....in most cases, leadership.

I have every reason to believe the people of Europe are good people....raising families, striving to support themselves and provide for a life free of pain and unpleasantness, however.....

The Governments are a different matter.

In my little ol meaningless opinion, France, Germany, Russia and many other smaller so called allies of the US were no such thing. I know, I know....the old if they don't agree with you thingie.

Look....if I stand with you, then I stand with you....I don't care what you've done, I'll support you in every way I possibly can. I might not approve of what you're doing or have done, but I will stand by you nonetheless.

France and Germany make myself and most Americans sick to our stomachs....they cannot stand the US and have felt that way for years. Now before you decide that I'm just some guy on the internet, I have aquaintances throughout Europe and Canada.....90% have and still do feel that Europeans in general are jealous of the USA and have been brought up in that atmosphere all of their lives.

Not providing combat troops in Iraq is one thing....wishing to remain neutral is cool too....standing up against us is an entirely different matter.

Watch closely after our election.....the relationship dynamic is going to change between France/Germany and the USA....information which to this point in time has remained concealed will be loosed after our Presidential Election.

Hey....perhaps Kerry will win and then a career Washingtion politician will bring back the staus quo! HUMINT will recieve no funding and we can have us another 9/11.

It's certainly not like we thought it would be when we were kids eh?

AKIron · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2004, 12:48:40 PM »

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Originally posted by Tarmac
It only took a civil war with 600,000 dead for us to figure it out.

They've had far more many dead over the centuries in Europe and it seems unlikely to me it will ever be any different. Maybe it is time to let the women take charge.

Just kiddin' Lazs

straffo · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2004, 01:01:28 PM »

Bike your comparaison is completly flawed just one simple example : if you entre the USA your under the constitution of the USA whatever place you are.

Now remind me the name of the 2 Europeans states who made the attempt of an European constition a no-go ?

Gniark

Rude · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2004, 01:16:50 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Rude, America and Europe stood together during the Cold War, and Korea, and to some extent Vietnam. In most if not all previous political and military conflicts Europe stood by you because we though you were right, and America likewise stood by Europe. After 9/11 the WORLD stood by you, and many nation pledged forces to stand by you in Afghanistan, because we thought you were right. This time, with the invasion of Iraq in spite of the will of the UN we don't think you are right, and you will have to excuse us for saying so.

Like I said....to disagree is fine...to standby and refuse help is good too....to actively stand in our way like Germany and France did for reasons which had nothing to do with just disagreeing is inexcusable.

They've made their beds....their only hope for a return to corruption is Kerry.

bikekil · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2004, 01:41:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
Bike your comparaison is completly flawed just one simple example : if you entre the USA your under the constitution of the USA whatever place you are.
Now remind me the name of the 2 Europeans states who made the attempt of an European constition a no-go ?
Gniark

Then Straffo, please tell me what comparision is flawed and why exactly, becaus ei still can't see your point here.

Other then that, if you 've asked

EU promised us a system of voting inside of the EU. That system was gining us some position there (no matter how important, but adequate to the 40000000+ population here). We've discussed with EU, agreed on something.. then people voted here (including myself). I've voted for joining the EU (just a note as i'd like to speak for myself not the whole Poles).
Generally people here decided that they want Poland to join EU -WTFG some would say...

then after every "new for EU" country voted, EU decided to chance the rules and annonced a change of voting system inside of the EU.... it's not hard to guess that the "new" one was not really close to to the one we were promised before... and would put us into the weaker position. I believe if this would happened to France, Germany or... GB you would scream as loud as possible that it's unfair

No matter what you say this is still something that wasn't done right.
Now i could say screw EU if they are playing dirty with us... that's my vote, however i can't vote again because it already happened.

If that's the way business are doine in the EU - screw the EU.
If the new system is better then the old one (i see that it could be possible

) then why EU havn't come up with it before we voted for joining? Why our corrupted politicians agreed with EU on something and then EU decided to change the deal before we joined but after we voted? that sucks

i believe with EU that sucks so bad, we will be behind US... biiig time behing and for long. I thign China will be ahead of us pretty soon also - good or bad i dont' care, that's what Europe is for me.. and i still like europe

Maniac · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2004, 01:43:26 PM »

So bike, i guess you voted no for Poland to join the EU?

bikekil · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2004, 01:47:53 PM »

Due to the Frogm4n definition of Europe, Poland is no longer a part of it. So european Mexico decided USA is right about Iraq

I loved to see how Chirac got mad about it

Maniac, as i said "I've voted for joining the EU".If i knew EU is giong to change the deal before we joined but after we decided to join, i would reconsider. Not because i don't like the EU idea - i like it. Not because i do care about the money EU will probablt spent here (i dont't care and i guess i will never see any of it myself). I just don't like the whole "broken promises" way that is so populer in the "western" europe

Frogm4n · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2004, 01:50:03 PM »

lol rude, you need some help. If you really think that bush is a washington outsider your kidding yourself. And i think when you say most americans are sick to their stomachs over germany france etc., you really should say about 30 percent who are the hard core facist republicans.

Frogm4n · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2004, 01:52:44 PM »

Sorry i just dont respect most ex soviet satillite countrys right now. They are still fairly backwards government wise. Although poland is slightly ahead of the rest. Give them 20 or so years, and i think they will be in the 21st century.

Tarmac · « **Reply #25 on:** February 02, 2004, 02:31:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by bike killa
Tarmac,
...that could lead us to conclusion then people here are different... many wars by ages... then WW1 and WW2... i'm afraid to guess how many people lost their lifes just because Euros are too stupid to get together.

On the contrary, I'd say that the things going on in the EU are very similar to the founding of the US. A group of separate, autonomous states comes together under a constitution, establishes free trade, and eventually standardizes its currency. After a while, political and economic decisions are made centrally. Then, the constitutional government begins to intrude on the autonomy of the member states' sovereignty, by passing laws over them in the name of free trade or morality or whatever.

Eventually, some of the states feel that the central decision making body does not represent them anymore - even if it's a 49-51 split. These member states rebel in some way - they declare an EU/Federal resolution null within their borders. The larger body retaliates and says "You can't do that."
The states say "Well, if we can't ignore you under the rules of the central constitution, then we'll withdraw from it."
Again, the central government says "You can't do that."
The states say, "Yes we can, we signed on to it voluntarily so we can voluntarily withdraw from it."

And then things get ugly.

That's the American Civil war in a nutshell. I see the same seeds being sown in the EU right now. I sincerely hope you can overcome the challenges presented without losing your individual liberties, but based on the similar events of the American Civil War I don't think it's possible.

straffo · « **Reply #26 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:11:26 PM »

Bike if you expect fairness in the EU you're just screwed

I've lost track of all what changed since last consultation for the Maastrich traity ...

I said your comparaison was flawed mainly because even if there is some friction between (for example) Californian and New Yorker if your slap one they will soon be american again and beat the crap of you.

Now I guess that if you slap a French, a German won't care ...

It's just because their is NO european nation yet. and it won't happen just because some politician/business man want the EU for their own need.

The fondation of the USA and EU are completly different.

And btw as far as it hurt my polish pride I do think that poland will be over represented with the current setup and it's not good.

I had to dig a bit to find the number because I was not sure :
Spain 27 votes for 39 millions
Poland 27 votes for 38 millions
Germany 29 votes for 82 millions
It's perhaps your vision of democratia, it's not mine

Frankly as a EU member I don't give a [beep] if Poland enter or not EU , it won't change my day life.

Our jobs are already going to Asia ... perhaps will it change with the arrival of Poland but when I here some business mand saying that Chine is slowly becoming costly I won't count on it

bikekil · « **Reply #27 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:22:37 PM »

Over represented because of money we will pay/take - yes, for sure

Over represented because of the numper of people we have here - no

That's why i think that the whole EU idea (that is really nice) is screwed. It's based on the money that someone can won there. It's still all same $h.t

I wish Poland will take none and pay none to the EU. I wish then i will not hear that we are over represented. I wish someone who have enought mony will buy the companies, factories and everything we have to sell here as i wish we could have a chance to buy something in EU. This would be fair.

I'm also sure it won't happened. EU don't love us. US don't love us and we have to take care of our business like any other country.

I just don;t like the idea of being "owned"

straffo · « **Reply #28 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:33:00 PM »

I edited my post

To answer shortly to your last post (it won't be long as I've a bad flue)

So far it worked I don't see why the model will fail (for now) , you sure have to pay but no engine run without fuel and if you want to progess toward the future you just have to put some fuel.

EU is not only an administration sit in Brussel ,it also a promise for our childrens.
One good side of EU is that it force an imbrication of the state member which is good to avoid future conflict.

Concidering the owned part I don't believe in generosity between states especially when there is no rule.

You now like me how fast a promise can be forgotten especially when there is a lot of distance ...

bikekil · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2004, 04:35:31 PM »

Straffo, our vision of democracia as you say is built by the value of money. Your opinion is that if country is giving more money, should have more votes. It';s cool.. however...

I can't see it a good deal for Poland, to be the one of the biggesst populations in EU and having very little votes.

The voting system you've posted was introduced to Poland before people here decided to vote for or against joining the EU. We voted and then suddenly EU decided to change the system before we joined EU. This is the democracy you see fair?
Believe me, as much as i like the EU idea i say this move sucks bit time and smells bad. I also wish we have a chance to vote again... that would be fair i think.

But the way i see it, is Poland don't take the EU money, have a number of voted adeqate to the population. As investments are free, everyone who'd like to invest his provate money could do it. It would be more fair, the to have no impact on the EU things once having great number of people on-board.

Author Topic: Europe is weak (Read 1651 times)

Nakhui