Author Topic: Europe is weak (Read 1653 times)

Pei · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2004, 04:43:41 PM »

There isn't really a comparison between the founding of the USA and what is going on in Europe.

The 13 Colonies were all English speaking with a more or less homogenouse culture and history. The EU states are linguisticly and culturally much more diverse.

In my opinion the EU has gone too far (at least for now):

Some standardization is good (as long as it isn't taken too far).
Free trade and travel is good.

Having someone in Brussels or Strasbourg decide on fiscal policy (let alone social or foreign policy) is bad.
Westminster is already far too detached from the way ordinary people in the UK think and feel: Brussels is even further away.

The whole concept of a one size fits all European constitution is ridiculous. What I find sensible, acceptable and necessary as a Brition is not the same as what a Frenchman or a German thinks, let alone a Pole or a Czech (for example the whole headscarf thing going on in France).

Maybe one day, many generations hence there will have been enough commonality of history and culture for there to be a United States of Europe but trying to force one through now is insane.

Having said that whatever the US feels about Old Europe and it's wars, the chance of a war amongst EU states is virtually nil. How the hell can the UK go to war with France when they are the ones building our warships? How can we fight Germany when they make our steel? The whole "Europe hasn't learned anything" rant is stupid. What lead to the major wars in Europe was "me first" power politics and the nationalism that supported it. What worries modern Europeans about current US policy is that it looks like it is starting to abandon the consensus policies of the late 20th century in favour of something that looks very like what the Great Powers did in the early 20th century. Europe has learned where that leads, has the US?

straffo · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2004, 04:49:02 PM »

I've not been past your first line cause obviously I didn't expressed my thought correctly

Spain 27 votes for 39 millions
Poland 27 votes for 38 millions
Germany 29 votes for 82 millions

Personnaly I wouldn't have voted for the entry of Poland giving the current setup I would have voted against (but none asked my opinion ... democratia don't work really well in Europe... at leats not like in Swiss)
I personnaly don't see the point of having 1 vote for 1.44 million Pole and 1 vote for 2.82 million German.
It's flawed.
You can notice I didn't used a French example it's not a question of national pride or money it's a question of principle (my own not the "principle" of a French politician)

back to bed now

Rude · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:07:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
How did they "stand in your way"? They opposed your UN draft resolution on Iraq. That is their right. Have France or Germany sent troops to oppose you? No.

Politically....they spoke out purposefully to derail US efforts...not what an ally does.

Thrawn · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:16:33 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rude
France and Germany make myself and most Americans sick to our stomachs....they cannot stand the US and have felt that way for years.

"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."

"The Harris Poll. Aug. 12-17, 2003. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

“Do you feel that [see below] is a close ally of the U.S., is friendly but not a close ally, is not friendly but not an enemy, or is unfriendly and is an enemy of the U.S.?"

Close Ally / Friendly / Not Friendly / Enemy / Not Sure

Germany 19 / 42 / 20 / 8 / 10
France 13 / 33 / 34 / 9 / 10"

See were shooting your mouth off gets you?

Quote

Now before you decide that I'm just some guy on the internet, I have aquaintances throughout Europe and Canada.....90% have and still do feel that Europeans in general are jealous of the USA and have been brought up in that atmosphere all of their lives.

"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."

So what? You think that is somehow an unbiased sample? Please.

maslo · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:19:31 PM »

contemporary problem of Eu is in my opinion fact that O)#$%^#)$& socialist run it

Problem of socialist all over the Europe is that they support corruption a lot. They have no moreale and public laying is quite usual all around Eu.

Western part of Eu (ritch) wanne to have benefits of cheap east
and in the same moment they dont want easterns even to work in western part.

Eu is in serious problem and vision of free trade in Eu is only fairy tail. At least for 10 new countries.

But people are allowed to travell all around w/o problems so it will sort out somehow...
viva black economy

Rude · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:20:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Frogm4n
lol rude, you need some help. If you really think that bush is a washington outsider your kidding yourself. And i think when you say most americans are sick to their stomachs over germany france etc., you really should say about 30 percent who are the hard core facist republicans.

30%? Check the poll data.

January 31, 2003
Great Britain: An Ally Apart From the Rest
Saudi Arabia seen as more reliable than France on Iraq

by Lydia Saad

Americans make a sharp distinction between Great Britain and other would-be allies in the American-led effort to oust Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. The public is confident about the reliability of Great Britain in this context, but is divided about Turkey and widely skeptical about France, Germany, Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia. Two-thirds also believe that European countries like France and Germany owe the United States their support. While Americans generally disagree with the approach these European countries are taking toward Iraq, a slim majority believes they are willing to do their fair share to fight terrorism.

This from Gallup....oh, btw....stop kiddin yourself:)

midnight Target · « **Reply #36 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:20:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
the way of the poodle

GB is a ninth dan black belt in the "Way of the Poodle"

maslo · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:22:25 PM »

but we do not thing about killing each other ... (progress

)
thats good... now its race in robbing

Saurdaukar · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:23:54 PM »

Polish women are the most beautiful women in the world.

maslo · « **Reply #39 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:26:33 PM »

yup i did hear that they are lovely...
but most beautiful women are supposed to be persian.... so far i can confirm it

Rude · « **Reply #40 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:26:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."

"The Harris Poll. Aug. 12-17, 2003. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

“Do you feel that [see below] is a close ally of the U.S., is friendly but not a close ally, is not friendly but not an enemy, or is unfriendly and is an enemy of the U.S.?"

Close Ally / Friendly / Not Friendly / Enemy / Not Sure

Germany 19 / 42 / 20 / 8 / 10
France 13 / 33 / 34 / 9 / 10"

See were shooting your mouth off gets you?

"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."

So what? You think that is somehow an unbiased sample? Please.

Guess it depends on where ya get your data eh?

Frogm4n · « **Reply #41 on:** February 02, 2004, 06:57:54 PM »

you said disgusted with our allies rude, your supposed gallup poll(link?) still does not support your arguement. its one thing to say one disagee's with a policy, its another to say they are disgusted with it. Go to europe, you will still get special treatment from almost anywhere you go for being an american. They harbor no hate for our people that you do for theirs.

-tronski- · « **Reply #42 on:** February 02, 2004, 08:54:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pei
There isn't really a comparison between the founding of the USA and what is going on in Europe.

The 13 Colonies were all English speaking with a more or less homogenouse culture and history. The EU states are linguisticly and culturally much more diverse.

In my opinion the EU has gone too far (at least for now):

Some standardization is good (as long as it isn't taken too far).
Free trade and travel is good.

Having someone in Brussels or Strasbourg decide on fiscal policy (let alone social or foreign policy) is bad.
Westminster is already far too detached from the way ordinary people in the UK think and feel: Brussels is even further away.

The whole concept of a one size fits all European constitution is ridiculous. What I find sensible, acceptable and necessary as a Brition is not the same as what a Frenchman or a German thinks, let alone a Pole or a Czech (for example the whole headscarf thing going on in France).

Maybe one day, many generations hence there will have been enough commonality of history and culture for there to be a United States of Europe but trying to force one through now is insane.

Having said that whatever the US feels about Old Europe and it's wars, the chance of a war amongst EU states is virtually nil. How the hell can the UK go to war with France when they are the ones building our warships? How can we fight Germany when they make our steel? The whole "Europe hasn't learned anything" rant is stupid. What lead to the major wars in Europe was "me first" power politics and the nationalism that supported it. What worries modern Europeans about current US policy is that it looks like it is starting to abandon the consensus policies of the late 20th century in favour of something that looks very like what the Great Powers did in the early 20th century. Europe has learned where that leads, has the US?

Good points Pei...shame it'll be lost in the one up-manship, squabbling, and general frothing of the mouth that this subject usually brings...

Tronsky

NUKE · « **Reply #43 on:** February 02, 2004, 09:07:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pei

In my opinion the EU has gone too far (at least for now):

Some standardization is good (as long as it isn't taken too far).
Free trade and travel is good.

Having someone in Brussels or Strasbourg decide on fiscal policy (let alone social or foreign policy) is bad.
Westminster is already far too detached from the way ordinary people in the UK think and feel: Brussels is even further away.

The whole concept of a one size fits all European constitution is ridiculous. What I find sensible, acceptable and necessary as a Brition is not the same as what a Frenchman or a German thinks, let alone a Pole or a Czech (for example the whole headscarf thing going on in France).

Maybe one day, many generations hence there will have been enough commonality of history and culture for there to be a United States of Europe but trying to force one through now is insane.

Having said that whatever the US feels about Old Europe and it's wars, the chance of a war amongst EU states is virtually nil. [/i]

To think that the chance of war in Europe is virtualy nil is complety ignorant. Do you not see the reasons you yourself have listed? Having a EU deciding each country's direction when there is so much diversity will only lead to MORE tension some day.

Seems like Europe really hasn't learn much. This union is divisive ( word play intended) It carries a great risk of war in my opinion.

Some day one of these countries is going to decide that they are getting screwed by the rest of the EU, and there will be a war I believe.......a big war.

I for one see the writing on the wall.

Dowding · « **Reply #44 on:** February 03, 2004, 03:26:49 AM »

Well said Pei.

I'm sorry Bike Killa, but you seem to be suggesting that Poland should have the same voice as France, Germany or Britain. How can that possibly be fair? The big three are the EU as far as the majority of the funding goes - who do you think is bankrolling the big infrastructure improvements in your own country?

Personally, I don't mind more money going to Eastern European states - but I don't trust your politicians (I barely trust my own), and I believe it will take decades before the corruption and blatant criminality of certain former Eastern Bloc nations is ironed out.