Author Topic: A reason for pause... (Read 11482 times)

Tilt · « **Reply #150 on:** February 04, 2004, 07:44:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by kappa
Another well documented fact of the towers buring was the black smut belching from within them.

One question though, is your 800C and 760C temps assumed ambient temperatures??

it assumes steel at 800 at its hot end and 40 at its cold end.......the maths are not true of course they are just comparative.........what you see is that the typical length over cross section part of the formulae reduces the conductive effect to (in this case) .1 of the nominal temperature* k multiple.

The point being that typical steel structures are not good at conducting heat way from local hot spots because they are basically "thin".

It would be expected that the fire would have differing O2 available to it in different zones and that these zones would fluctuate as draughts changed

You could expect local fire storms sucking air from other areas as much as some areas becoming relatively low on O2.........to further complicate it one could assume that some areas were recieving super heated air from other areas still relatively O2 rich This recuperative effect can increase energy out put by upto 15% in a simple burner......our inferno is not limited to pre heat temperatures used to prolong burner nozzles it will thrive on any hot air.

........further as Hydro carbons burn they release more energy per kilogram than natural materials such as wood or paper plus they also have a high residue of excess carbon. Which will always smoke just as acetylene does when no oxygen is added.

Super heating on a forge model is probably unlikely as this would have indeed melted the steel although it would have consumed the combustable material at a very high rate to do so.

Foot note on steel making. The Bessemer steel process used air not oxygen to reduce cast iron to steel. It was only latterly that some mills used oxygen in their tuyers to enhance the process.

Hence steel was able to be made in conventional small cupulas with the aid of a set of bellows. However it would have to experience the process several times as the residue slag has to be tapped off each time prior to cooling. OK for the odd sword or suit of armour but useless for building bridges.

Higher grades of steel were later made by a process known as the double slag refining process which was able to refine liquid steel by extracting contaminating material by causing it to bond to alternate oxidizing and reducing slags........

kappa · « **Reply #151 on:** February 04, 2004, 08:00:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
Then stop whining like a little girl when people don't take you seriously. Seriously.

LoL dude!! I do not whine.. I simply ask you to go away yet you still hump my leg.. Is this a fatal attraction you have for me? Prove me wrong and dont reply..

Kieran · « **Reply #152 on:** February 04, 2004, 08:15:04 PM »

This is intellect?

This is reasoning?

You don't think you insulted Drei?

You're full of yourself, you don't have the courage to admit you feel the whole 9-11 event was a total conspiracy by our government, and you cannot bring yourself to admit you are being smashed by people such as Drei and Tilt who obviously do have a fair amount of expertise in their respective areas and aren't relying on the words of others (aka fringe websites) to shore their arguments.

My comments to you stand, and you will be outed. I know you hoped to build an unstoppable case based on logic, but it can be boiled down to simply these two cases:

A. Bombs were used to destroy building #7. If so, this means whoever planted the bombs knew of the 9-11 attack beforehand, and only the government could have. If they had been terrorist bombs (something you've already hinted you believe were domestic terrorists) it would still require govenment involvement. Any way you slice it, if #7 was rigged, the government was involved.

B. In an event unprecedented in history, two airliners collided with the two tallest man-made structures on earth, and the results were catastrophic and not wholely predictable by physics. Too many factors were involved to ever fully calculate to an absolute degree of certainty what the results should have been, or exactly how the events should have occured. As a result, we don't fully understand what happened for sure.

Which is more plausible... which one...

Look, I'll stop when you finally grow a pair and come out and admit you believe the Bush administration was behind the attack. Or directly deny you believe it. Halfway crap and saying "I don't know, I don't know" won't cut it, because the story you are trying so hard to sell has no other possible ending.

kappa · « **Reply #153 on:** February 04, 2004, 08:18:28 PM »

Ok.. due to Tilt's excellent post I will admit I am most likey wrong about the reasons tower 1 and 2 fell.. That it could be possible for the structure to be heated to the point of failure.. I admit the ideas are extreme in the least..

I cannot, however, accept no reason as reason for building #7's collapse. The offical government report concluded not to have a definative answer. #7 recieve only slight damage from the attacks and zero structual damage that can be seen from any photograph. Nor is any damaged cited in FEMA's report. No parts of tower 1 or 2 fell in sufficent size to produce enuff siesmic force to damage (proof is in the surrounding buildings were not damaged.. i.e. verizon building and federal post office) #7 as most of the entire structures were reduced to the fine layer of dust reported to be 1/4 inch thick covering all surrounding areas. Further more no siesmic tremors are reported, that I have been able to find, for the falling towers 1 and 2. #7 started my suspicions as the circumstances are strange in the least. The owners admission it was demolished only adds. The fact that no more investigation is being attempted adds doubt. Clearly my cup of faith needs refilling..

kappa · « **Reply #154 on:** February 04, 2004, 08:23:13 PM »

kieran, my last post, whatever you consider, has zero to do with you.. You are nothing but background noise to me.. Continue as you must..

muckmaw · « **Reply #155 on:** February 04, 2004, 08:27:18 PM »

Kappa-

I believe it was Nuke who asked you point blank what you think caused the towers to fall. I've not seen your answer, so I'll ask you in a different way.

What is your hypothesis for the collapse of WTC #7?

Please answer this very simple and direct question.

If you do not have a theory, I'd very much like to hear your suspicions.

Thanks.

kappa · « **Reply #156 on:** February 04, 2004, 08:36:15 PM »

If you do not have a theory, I'd very much like to hear your suspicions.

I have no theory at this time. My suspicion is there is more truth than what is common knowledge. My idea is to attempt to gather all possible reasons and form a theory from there... Good enough??

Your time and effort would be more appreciated in attempting to give plausible reasoning for the collapse of #7 rather than attempting to redicule me for my questioning..

Kieran · « **Reply #157 on:** February 04, 2004, 08:49:12 PM »

Dude, you only think you're above it all. Why do you think #7 fell? Of course there's more to it than FEMA has said, but don't make that to mean they are hiding anything. But wait, they MUST be hiding something, or so you seem to say.

But you don't think anything yet... right?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #158 on:** February 04, 2004, 09:33:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by kappa
Ok.. due to Tilt's excellent post I will admit I am most likey wrong about the reasons tower 1 and 2 fell.. That it could be possible for the structure to be heated to the point of failure.. I admit the ideas are extreme in the least..

Cool. You agree now there were no bombs in WTC1 and WTC2? If so that great and we are getting somewhere, shows you are open to reason. Right, no bombs in wtc 1 and 2? Correct?

NUKE · « **Reply #159 on:** February 04, 2004, 10:06:55 PM »

So now we are down to just building 7 after all that idiocy from kappa about 1 & 2 ?

kappa, your nut-job websites didn't really pan out for you did they? Did you know that there are professional multimillion dollar studies going on regarding the WTC collapse? Did you know that the studies and some intial results are probably easier to find on the internet than your whacko web links?

You said you want to find the truth, yet ignore any truth presented to you until you can't argue anymore because you are being made a fool of, basically.

Nice Job

NUKE · « **Reply #160 on:** February 04, 2004, 10:19:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by kappa
Nuke, you still have not grasped that jetfuel alone could not produce the heat required to fail the structual steel of an entire floor.

And you never grasped that there was not "just" jet fuel involved.

Now let's get on with number 7 and the evidence of bombs which took it down.

Get your foil hat and lets play again.

Capt. Pork · « **Reply #161 on:** February 04, 2004, 10:20:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by NUKE
So now we are down to just building 7 after all that idiocy from kappa about 1 & 2 ?

kappa, your nut-job websites didn't really pan out for you did they? Did you know that there are professional multimillion dollar studies going on regarding the WTC collapse? Did you know that the studies and some intial results are probably easier to find on the internet than your whacko web links?

You said you want to find the truth, yet ignore any truth presented to you until you can't argue anymore because you are being made a fool of, basically.

Nice Job

I think Kappa admitted the possibility of his being incorrect pretty diplomatically, actually. Reading this thread, it was generally the other guy to jump down his throat first. You can call the parent post paranoid, fanatical, unfounded or just plain stupid, but I think he maintained his composure better than the average contributor to this thread.

If the pattern set here persists, I expect to be called a tard very soon.

NUKE · « **Reply #162 on:** February 04, 2004, 10:38:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I think Kappa admitted the possibility of his being incorrect pretty diplomatically, actually. Reading this thread, it was generally the other guy to jump down his throat first. You can call the parent post paranoid, fanatical, unfounded or just plain stupid, but I think he maintained his composure better than the average contributor to this thread.

If the pattern set here persists, I expect to be called a tard very soon.

kappa basically told me I didn't have the intelect to "understand his reasoning" He was correct, I don't understand his reasoning.

He deserves to be outed as a fool for all of the things he has said in this thread.

kappa didnt get any worse than he dished out. he didn't ever actually present his views, even when asked, yet called people names or asked them to "leave his thread" when they tried to get him to state his view. he was generally a smug smart arse and deserves being outed for what he is/was here

Capt. Pork · « **Reply #163 on:** February 04, 2004, 10:51:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by NUKE
kappa basically told me I didn't have the intelect to "understand his reasoning" He was correct, I don't understand his reasoning.

He deserves to be outed as a fool for all of the things he has said in this thread.

kappa didnt get any worse than he dished out. he didn't ever actually present his views, even when asked, yet called people names or asked them to "leave his thread" when they tried to get him to state his view. he was generally a smug smart arse and deserves being outed for what he is/was here

Actually, his first hostile response came after GTO had posted his third or fourth post containing an insult(the one with the large bold font that I assume indicated shouting). After that, being on the defensive against at least a half dozen people, he periodically reacted with emotion but not always, definitely not as much as the collective opposition.

Anyway, this whole thing has reached absurdity. I'm not defending his theory, merely pointing out that given the average response, he could have been way more harsh(as I probably would have). And the fact that he assented in the face of valid evidence is also admirable(especially since some people, apparently, are still not done insulting him).

I think Kappa's an OK dude, and he's probably achieved a vastly favorable MA K/D ratio on just about everyone in this thread, which is irrelevant, but I choose to bring it up.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #164 on:** February 04, 2004, 11:07:42 PM »

Capt Pork.

I know and admit I am or was being bellybutton to him in this thread, he more then earned it in his last thread.

I am still astounded he will not even post what he thinks. I am normaly not the attacking type up here, but his guy rubs me the wrong way so bad I have a hard time keeping it mature. At least with the other wack jobs on the board like LDV and DMDn they do not try and hide what they really think.

Not a great justification for my behavior by Kappa is by no mean the inocent here, in his other thread, he was so insulting to some people, I just did not think he deserved another chance.