A reason for pause...

[Saurdaukar]

I R TEH TERRAR!

[GtoRA2]

Saur
You rigged the buildings to blow?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
LOL

You joking about him in Berkely right? That would be too funny!

Yea I was joking, kappa is obviously outta this world...

[Kieran]

Originally posted by Thrawn
If kappa is an such an idiot and the physics in the article such crap...why hasn't anyone actually refuted it yet?

I have before.

Kappa's physics are based on theory, or controlled tests. As far as I know, no one has ever conducted a controlled test on the effects of crashing airliners into skyscrapers.

Vaporising fuel? That assumes it all burns at once, which wouldn't necessarily be true if it spilled into the building and down stairwells and such.

No steel framed building has ever collapsed from fire? No steel framed building has ever been hit by something as large as an airliner. That day, two were, and both fell. 2 for 2.

Surely you of all people, Thrawn, must understand the Occam's razor aspect of this discussion. You must also surely sense Kappa's overt message of conspiracy as well.

[lasersailor184]

Hmm, let's think about this.


Office Building.

With people working in it.

Lots and lots of paper.

And you wonder why it was burning?

Cmon Conspiracy Theory guys.  I was pretty sure you would understand that.

[Dowding]

The F-15 angle is interesting, all the same. The pilots seem to be saying they had the pedal to the metal all the way, but the official timeline says they were practically cruising?

[Eagler]

AND

the world is flat
the sky is falling
and the moon landing was fake

kappa, put down the lefties before you are so paraniod you'll refuse to go outside...

the "reason to pause" is to actually realize how strangely some ppl's thought processes work or fail to work ... amazing

[SLO]

Kappa.....asking questions is always good.

to solely rely on what some Govr 'Expert' would say would be foolish indeed.

keep asking your questions:aok

I have a friend who is a Struct. Eng....and we discussed this at length one night at his house....

the WTC where very big buildings....BUT.....the FLOORS where STACKED LIKE A HOUSE OF CARDS....the words used by my friend.

from the info he collected....once the 1st floor colapsed, the rest followed....pancaked one on top of the other...Hence the BOOM BOOM BOOM as the floor colapsed....

don't forget the floors where attached very lightly....my friends term....

and the FIRE RESISTENCE protection inside the buildings had but all vanished with the years....

just for a little INFO....

the WTC architect was a very good friend of OBL's Family....hence the middle eastern arches at the bottom of the WTC....

[Tilt]

The F15 angle smacks of coverup............they could have prevented the 2nd impact.............they didnt........... they flew subsonic and got there late whilst general confusion still reigned......... story is smudged to avoid embarrassment.


To speculate.(because thats all this is really)


Collapse time............  I think this should be checked again. If the inner core had collapased or totally lost integrity then indeed the outer shell would be very close to free fall (indeed it may even be in a "forced fall"state where the inner core is pulling it down).

Total collapse would then be the time from which the core started to collapse, not the time the outer shell began its cascade.

There are many questions regarding the core design, which if I remember was a cross laticed square donut (in plan view)extending up the centre of the tower. It could be argued that the construction was strong in both compression and  tension yet comparatively weak under torsion, were the structure be heated to its plastic phase. As the steel (at the offending floor) gave way under heat the structure was more likely to twist than to topple in this particular zone.

Given that the steel would be approaching a plastic zone at the temperatures quoted the structural tie work would still be in place  but "soft"and  indeed a twisting collapse is then more likely.

This (a twisting collapse) seems to be the only way the core can collapse without toppling  . To achieve this with explosives would be still very difficult as even when this is performed the structure is mechanically weakend in advance to achieve the proper effect ......... I think that folk with sledge  and kango hammers preparing the building for demolition may have been noticed.

The fact that the weakend zone was mid way up the tower would have been "worst case". There will be a point some way up the tower where a collapsing floor (or floors) will have the momentum gained by the weight of the floors above to over come the structural integrity of the floor (singular floor) below.

Rubble height. This building extended many floors below "ground" level. The rubble height has little bearing when one considers the massive structures that collapsed  and fell below ground level.

And so if we must muse over the irony of thinking the unthinkable we can specualte with equal credibility that there is an equally plausible (non conspiritorial) explanation for the sequence of events that occurred.

One would wonder over what speculation would occur had the two towers toppled with perfect timing into each other to leave a massive arch of destruction upon the NY sky line.

Equally implausable??? well ..........less likely......... but not inplausable.

No more so than trying to understand the miriad of events that occur under such a complex structural failure and then trying to draw conclusions soley from the unanswered questions.

We do know that a group of people flew two planes into the twin towers.

We do know they collapsed shortly afterwards.

The weight of evidence supporting this as the work of Al Qeada far out ways the evidence  originating from unanswered questions which (if answered) may either explain or confuse present understanding as much as it (those answers) might refute it.

[kappa]

Take it up to 100 posts, Kappa will declare we are idiots (while carefully ignoring or tiptoeing around the hard questions), then say he is moving on. kieran

Here you go again with this bs.. What questions have I ignored??

Grunherz has him nailed on the explosives question. Nuke has him on the explanation for the collapse, and the heat generated. Nuke also buried him with the "Occam's Razor" point of "what is the most obvious answer?".

lmao Grunherz nailed me by asking when explosives were put in the buildings? This challenges the presented theories how??
Nuke's explanation is regurgitated answers. All of which are delt with in my first article posted..  Occam's Razor? lmao  good if the reason given can be proven without question. One reason here does not explain everything. i.e. Why did Building #7 fall? <--everyone is ignoring this...

Kappa's physics are based on theory, or controlled tests.

Not true. Required structual integrity of static objects is not theory.  Failing temperature of structual steel is not theory. Boiling/evaporating temperatures of jet fuel is not theory. Required heat energy to melt 200,000 tons of steel is not theory. Buildings falling at FREEFALL speeds is not theory. Building #7 falling is not theory. Eyewitness accounts of that day are not theory. I could go on.. None of these points have been challenged.
There are test conducted of the temperatures obtained from jetfuel fires. They do not come close to the temperature required in any circumstance to heat (even uninsulated) structual steel to the failing point. You know, acetylene torch hot. What is required to heat a blow torch to melting steel temperatures?? The idea that jetfuel alone could do it is absurd.
Jetfuel is not a nuclear meltdown were as heat builds and builds. Eventually it flash ignites or boils/evaporates away. The hotter the ambient temp, the faster this happens. Certainly office furniture would not produce the heat necessay. Nor could piles of paper. If heat were that easy to produce, energy would be free.
I dont believe many here have actually taken into consideration the scope and amount of heat energy required. As well as the cooling properties of metal. How heat will not focus on any one point of a metal surface.
The buildings falling at near freefall speeds means the entire structual integrity of all THREE buildings (THREE BUILDINGS) failed at one time...
If the floors compacted each other, where was the stack of floors at the bottom of the pile? What happed to the quarter mile long center support colums? Why were they not left standing?
None of these ideas are challanged here and cannot be explained with the the given reasons..

Vaporising fuel? That assumes it all burns at once, which wouldn't necessarily be true if it spilled into the building and down stairwells and such. kerian

Again talking with ignorance. That fuel is just simply to lye along side with a supposed ambient temp above 2000deg F? 800deg C?  If it spills down stairways, etc.., does it produce nuclear fires? Why would it not produce an everyday run-to-the-mill fire?

Because sane men don't have arguements with nutcases, as the website proves this. ripsnort

Lmao  clearly we have found the intellectual mind of the board. with his ability to just dismiss something without any thought of it. what a stunning ability..

No amount of arguing or evidence will change the minds of those who WANT and NEED to believe such nonsense. grunherz

The amount of irony in that statement is amazing... I've tried to believe your way.. I tried for 2 years. With just a few basic scientific principles applied the accepted story does not add up and is proven debunked. i.e. melting temp of steel, fall time of buildings, WTC#7 falling..

If kappa is an such an idiot and the physics in the article such crap...why hasn't anyone actually refuted it yet?Thrawn

Makes me wonder too.. The four people attacking me obviously lack the ability/desire.. The difference is marginal..

[lazs2]

tell ya what I believe... I believe that everything you read on kappas lefty nutball sites is a total lie.  I believe they feel that lying is justified.   I believe that the canadian is mistaken.   I believed carl friggin sagan was mistaken about the effect of the sadman lighting all the kuwait oil fields on fire but he had a lot of data and computer models to rove him right.

I believe he lied too.

lazs

[Hortlund]

I think I'll start with this one

Originally posted by kappa
It fell DIRECTLY in its own footprint. The debris was spread only a bit more than 10m around. The pile of debris was less than 15m high.

Spot the 10 m debris spread











Spot the 15m debris pile





I D I O T

[lazs2]

so.... you are saying that the guy writing the article.....lied?  That the facts don't bear out his lefty paranoid theory?

what a surprise

but just think of it this way... if kappa can put doubt in the mind of just one Bush voter.... all the lying and effort is worth it.

lazs

[kappa]

Thankyou Tilt!

There are many questions regarding the core design, which if I remember was a cross laticed square donut (in plan view)extending up the centre of the tower. It could be argued that the construction was strong in both compression and tension yet comparatively weak under torsion, were the structure be heated to its plastic phase. As the steel (at the offending floor) gave way under heat the structure was more likely to twist than to topple in this particular zone.

Given that the steel would be approaching a plastic zone at the temperatures quoted the structural tie work would still be in place but "soft"and indeed a twisting collapse is then more likely.

Would you think the amount of steel approaching the 'plastic' zone would be the entire length of the inner core colums? Or a small area? With this twisting idea, what would you consider the possibilities of the building collapsing straight down and not rolling to the side then falling?

The fact that the weakend zone was mid way up the tower would have been "worst case". There will be a point some way up the tower where a collapsing floor (or floors) will have the momentum gained by the weight of the floors above to over come the structural integrity of the floor (singular floor) below.

I have thought about this much and give a lot of credence to the idea. If this were the case, could we not expect to see a pile of floors at teh bottom? Much like (from my link) LP records stacked on a spindle? If the floors did cascade down, what of the quarter mile long center colums?? Would they not still be basically intact? Perhaps standing?

[kappa]

Originally posted by lazs2
tell ya what I believe... I believe that everything you read on kappas lefty nutball sites is a total lie.  I believe they feel that lying is justified.   I believe that the canadian is mistaken.   I believed carl friggin sagan was mistaken about the effect of the sadman lighting all the kuwait oil fields on fire but he had a lot of data and computer models to rove him right.

I believe he lied too.

lazs

Without question I believe you. Without question, you believe..