Author Topic: Toad - you wanted proof? It's live right now  (Read 3382 times)

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2004, 03:17:04 PM »
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That would be a fair deal if you were right on their initial intent. France, Germany and Russia did believe that Iraq might have hidden away WMD, but they did not agree that an invasion was the solution.


That's the prob. They signed 1441 knowing full well what America would do when Iraq was found in breach. To say they did not know would be foolish. No one who watched the news could make any mistake about what Bush intended to do, and what the purpose of 1441 was. It was the final line in the sand. Frances, Germany, and Russia were tacitly giving the green light to Bush by signing that paper.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2004, 03:19:43 PM »
BTW, reparations my ass. We are in there right now rebuilding. Iraq was in breach of UN resolutions whether or not the UN cared to do anything about it. That squares things as far as I'm concerned.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2004, 03:42:09 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
1441 does not authorize military action against Iraq. The UN has to specifically authorize military action by mandating member nations to act on its behalf. That was the battle the US lost in the UNSC against France, Germany and Russia among others. The UN did not authorize this war, and your government took action anyway citing self-defence as the reason. Now that it is clear Iraq had no WMD and was no imminent threat to the US, it is also clear that the war was illegal.


I understand precisely how the UN is supposed to work, and the role of the Security Counsel. I also realize neither did their job.  In hindsight the US probably shouldn't have been in there... but using your "if it had been their intent" line of thinking, if the intent had been to mislead, you would be right. Once again, the Kaye report does not support this assertion. The Kaye report DOES say Iraq was in breach, which means the US WAS right about that, and underscores once again the indecision and and impotence of the UN and UNSC.

Neither side is gonna get a free ride.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2004, 03:43:56 PM »
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Originally posted by Dowding
Erm... Libya wanted to come in from the cold a decade ago and give up its WMD programs, but the US State Department didn't seem to want to listen.


Does actively sponsering terror factor in or are you telling me they are innocent like Saddam?

Offline Rude

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« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2004, 03:51:02 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Rebuilding the Iraq you destroyed hardly makes up for all those lives that were lost.


You stated earlier that we killed thousands of innocent Iraqi's and lost thousands of our own....prove it.

We destroyed Iraq?

I don't think your honest.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2004, 04:02:32 PM by Rude »

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2004, 04:09:18 PM »
Toad - the straw man I was referring to is the 'you're saying Bush is Hitler' argument that is often dragged out in these type of discussions. How is it relevant? You putting 'Bush and Hitler' together in the search engine spawns so many results precisely  because it is used by the pro-war types to refute arguments made by the anti-war types. Ever consider that? Do you not see the moronic 'BOOOSHH, AMREEEKA IS HITLER' crap spawned by Grunherz and Co.?

Rude - Oh my. When have I said Saddam was innocent? Gaddaffi seemed to be renouncing terrorism in '99 at least, given the Lockerbie trial. Apparently he was also willing to do it before, but the US State Department didn't want to explore that further according to Gary Hart.

Hart worked at it for several months, but no matter how open-ended the offers from Tripoli, the State Department was not interested. Hart tells me he has always assumed the administration preferred to have Libya remain “a villain.”
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

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« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2004, 04:13:05 PM »
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Originally posted by Rude
We destroyed Iraq?


I'm still confused to what we are rebuilding in Iraq...

If Iraq didn't have cell phones before the war... why the heck are we putting a cell phone system in now!

If Iraq didn't have Cable Internet... why the heck is ComCast there now?

If Iraq didnt' have McDonalds, AMC Theaters, KFC, Wal-Mart, and Win-Dixies... why are we "re-building" franchise stores?

Something smells like pork!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2004, 04:13:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Nakhui

They do have control over who they give tax relief too - don't they!
 


The Congress does, yes. The President can only make proposals. Congress acts on those, either for or against, and either we get a new tax law or we don't.

In any event, the President cannot simply change the tax code all by himself.

100 Senators and 435 Representatives, from both parties, have that responsibility.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Rude

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« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2004, 04:57:05 PM »
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Originally posted by Dowding
Toad - the straw man I was referring to is the 'you're saying Bush is Hitler' argument that is often dragged out in these type of discussions. How is it relevant? You putting 'Bush and Hitler' together in the search engine spawns so many results precisely  because it is used by the pro-war types to refute arguments made by the anti-war types. Ever consider that? Do you not see the moronic 'BOOOSHH, AMREEEKA IS HITLER' crap spawned by Grunherz and Co.?

Rude - Oh my. When have I said Saddam was innocent? Gaddaffi seemed to be renouncing terrorism in '99 at least, given the Lockerbie trial. Apparently he was also willing to do it before, but the US State Department didn't want to explore that further according to Gary Hart.

Hart worked at it for several months, but no matter how open-ended the offers from Tripoli, the State Department was not interested. Hart tells me he has always assumed the administration preferred to have Libya remain “a villain.”


Do you always believe what you read?

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2004, 05:43:22 PM »
George Orwell is saying..See I told you so.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2004, 10:32:15 PM »
I'm curious, Gscholz, why you believe a fundamental understanding of the UN and UNSC is beyond my ability to comprehend? I simply don't agree with a world organization that says over and over "Don't!... or else!" for 12 years, and is ignored. I don't see how such an organization was effective in stopping or even limiting the growth of terrorism, or the funding of terrorists by member states. I don't see how you consider Iraq a better place with SH in place (not that it matters).

Look, I'll give you the WMD are apparently not there. I'll accept the Kaye report as honest. If you scan back on my words over the last year, you'll see over and over I would have supported war against Iraq without WMD, and always said so. Reparations? LOL.

You'd better come to grips with something- the UN doesn't work. It hasn't for some time. It didn't stop any terror attacks against the US either foreign or domestic, and it won't in the future, so you know what? In matters of defense it doesn't really matter to me what the UN says. We're all looking out for our own, my country, your country, and no one's hands are clean.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2004, 10:45:03 PM »
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You destroyed most of Iraq's modern infrastructure. Waterworks, power plants, communications.


You know, I think the thing that bugs me the most about you is how you single America out as if it is the only country involved in this thing, or the only country that has ever been involved in anything like it. We already know that is not true. We also know SH was not complying with any UN resolutions, so his was an outlaw regime. Yet somehow I have the feeling you believe we should stick him back in power with an apology and a pile of money.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2004, 10:50:15 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
The United States of America proposed a draft resolution authorizing military action, but withdrew it when it became clear that they did not have the support of the majority of the UNSC


thats not true. France was the one threatening veto, nothing to do with a majority.

Basically France and Germany were the minority in the UN regarding backing previous UN resolutions with the threat of force.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2004, 06:36:34 AM »
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See? You oviously don't understand. The UN was never meant to "stopping or even limiting the growth of terrorism, or the funding of terrorists by member states". The UN was created to solve conflicts between nations.


Terrorism isn't a conflict between nations? Now you are being obtuse. It occurs when a country is acting out against a political or military foe, and has no other means (you know, like a world court) to address its needs. If the UN was doing what it was originated to do (ie, build relations between countries, support the downtrodden, make friends of enemies) we wouldn't have more and more terrorists, now would we? You're just playing a semantic game.

I was curious why you thought you were superior YET AGAIN, you answered it- you aren't. If you are trying to argue the UN works as it should, you should be listening to its leadership- they don't think it's working all that hot.

But let's not get derailed yet again... yes, it is my opinion the UN is a joke organization we dump billions of dollars into every year. No, I don't trust the UN to have any part of our actions to defend ourselves, or to react to those that threaten us in any way.

But, you can continue on as if you possess a singular knowledge of all things international I suppose...

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2004, 08:08:19 AM »
What Weapons of Mass Destruction Evidence Have We Found In Iraq? Excerpts from David Kay's Report
by Dan Masterson
October 4, 2003
If your where to listen to the talking heads on the various mainstream media outlets, or read the commentary and reporting in the mainstream newspaper, it would seem that Saddam had repented of his previous weapons of mass destruction sins and had begun to emulate the life of Mahatma Ghandi.

The following are excerpts from David Kay’s testimony to the House and Senate Committees. They may not have found a “Fat Man” sitting in Saddam’s kitchen (neither Saddam or a nuclear bomb) but they have found some fairly scary things. Read on and decide yourself. Also, at the bottom of the page there are photographs of some of the evidence that has been found or destroyed.

...

Why are we having such difficulty in finding weapons or in reaching a confident conclusion that they do not exist or that they once existed but have been removed? Our search efforts are being hindered by six principal factors:

From birth all of Iraq's WMD activities were highly compartmentalized within a regime that ruled and kept its secrets through fear and terror and with deception and denial built into each program;


Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post conflict;


Post-OIF looting destroyed or dispersed important and easily collectable material and forensic evidence concerning Iraq's WMD program. As the report covers in detail, significant elements of this looting were carried out in a systematic and deliberate manner, with the clear aim of concealing pre-OIF activities of Saddam's regime;


Some WMD personnel crossed borders in the pre/trans conflict period and may have taken evidence and even weapons-related materials with them;


Any actual WMD weapons or material is likely to be small in relation to the total conventional armaments footprint and difficult to near impossible to identify with normal search procedures. It is important to keep in mind that even the bulkiest materials we are searching for, in the quantities we would expect to find, can be concealed in spaces not much larger than a two car garage;


The environment in Iraq remains far from permissive for our activities, with many Iraqis that we talk to reporting threats and overt acts of intimidation and our own personnel being the subject of threats and attacks. In September alone we have had three attacks on ISG facilities or teams: The ISG base in Irbil was bombed and four staff injured, two very seriously; a two person team had their vehicle blocked by gunmen and only escaped by firing back through their own windshield; and on Wednesday, 24 September, the ISG Headquarters in Baghdad again was subject to mortar attack.
... We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.


A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.


Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.


New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.


Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).


A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of  500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.


Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.


Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.


Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.
In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence - hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use - are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts. For example,

On 10 July 2003 an ISG team exploited the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) Headquarters in Baghdad. The basement of the main building contained an archive of documents situated on well-organized rows of metal shelving. The basement suffered no fire damage despite the total destruction of the upper floors from coalition air strikes. Upon arrival the exploitation team encountered small piles of ash where individual documents or binders of documents were intentionally destroyed. Computer hard drives had been deliberately destroyed. Computers would have had financial value to a random looter; their destruction, rather than removal for resale or reuse, indicates a targeted effort to prevent Coalition forces from gaining access to their contents.


All IIS laboratories visited by IIS exploitation teams have been clearly sanitized, including removal of much equipment, shredding and burning of documents, and even the removal of nameplates from office doors.


Although much of the deliberate destruction and sanitization of documents and records probably occurred during the height of OIF combat operations, indications of significant continuing destruction efforts have been found after the end of major combat operations, including entry in May 2003 of the locked gated vaults of the Ba'ath party intelligence building in Baghdad and highly selective destruction of computer hard drives and data storage equipment along with the burning of a small number of specific binders that appear to have contained financial and intelligence records, and in July 2003 a site exploitation team at the Abu Ghurayb Prison found one pile of the smoldering ashes from documents that was still warm to the touch.
...

Following are photographs of some of the goodies that have been found.



 Vials: A total of 97 vials-including those with labels consistent with the al Hakam cover stories of single-cell protein and biopesticides, as well as strains that could be used to produce BW agents-were recovered from a scientist's residence.



 
Lab Equipment From Mosque.


 
 
Burned Documents Found at SAAD Center: An exploitation team on a recent mission to the SAAD Center, part of the Baghdad New Nuclear Design Center, found massive looting and the remnants of deliberately destroyed documents. Other documents were left untouched, however, and recovered by the team
 


 
Storage room in basement of Revolutionary Command Council Headquarters. Burned frames of PC workstations visible on shelves. All rooms sharing walls with this storage room were untouched from fire or battle damage
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